MRAP and the creeping militarisation of the police

[Soup DeVille]

Fine, how about I quote ABC?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspected-shooter-dead-shooting-maryland-mall/story?id=21809168

Or wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

*of special note please see secondary explosive device*

The point was not about the article, it was about the several hundred incidents each year in America where having an armored personnel carrier would be useful. 

You've convinced me.

I'll get one.

[SVT_Power]

So a town of 23,000 people felt it was necessary to spend $300,000 (whether it be a specific grant for this purchase or not) for an APC? Regardless of whether it's a damn battle tank or a glorified armoured SUV, we're talking about a small town that's seen THREE murders since 1999 (2 in 2003, and 1 in 2011). In 2012, City of Keene's PD's report shows 6 "weapon law violations", which I'm honestly not sure what it means but I would assume that that means the city isn't exactly plagued by gun issues.

So what's the justification? Sure I get that it's a tool for police safety, it's not a battle tank, etc etc. But why spend $300,000 on it for this town? The city had a chance to receive this grant so it took it instead of losing out on a "free" $300,000?

I'm not talking about whether police should have these things or not, I can see a time and place for one. But people seriously need to open their eyes and look at the wasted money.

[saxonyron]

So a town of 23,000 people felt it was necessary to spend $300,000 (whether it be a specific grant for this purchase or not) for an APC? Regardless of whether it's a damn battle tank or a glorified armoured SUV, we're talking about a small town that's seen THREE murders since 1999 (2 in 2003, and 1 in 2011). In 2012, City of Keene's PD's report shows 6 "weapon law violations", which I'm honestly not sure what it means but I would assume that that means the city isn't exactly plagued by gun issues.

So what's the justification? Sure I get that it's a tool for police safety, it's not a battle tank, etc etc. But why spend $300,000 on it for this town? The city had a chance to receive this grant so it took it instead of losing out on a "free" $300,000?

I'm not talking about whether police should have these things or not, I can see a time and place for one. But people seriously need to open their eyes and look at the wasted money.

That about sums up Keene.  My Bro in law in a cop just outside of Keene, knows it intimately. He was floored when they pulled the stunt. 3 in-laws went to Keene State College.  Sure Hounddog, plenty of bad guys that need neutralizing, and yes, Greg, I'm a tin foil hatted lunatic (but I listen to more NPR than talk radio, sooo....), please take an objective step back.  How many SWAT teams were obliterated by lunatic gunmen in the past 40 years?  Back in the dark days when they used the standard issue SWAT trucks? I can see big cities needing this, but seriously.  No one is going to convince me that a sleepy village like Keene needs an MRAP.  Especially a brand new procured one,  not surplus equipment.  Do you guys remember what that acronym stands for??   Mine Resistant Ambush Protected.  If this is essential equipment for local police forces, in you LEO's opinion, I question the your thought processes.  Maybe the lure of "free" federal money is just too much to resist, so we can rationalize anything.   

I have to defer to Ben Franklin who said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  Really think about his quote.  It's painfully accurate in this situation.

[Soup DeVille]

I do not believe "MRAP" is a term which applies to the Bearcat though.

My take on it is this: most of the arguments for polic having these vehicles apply to justifying Me having one as well. "Its better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it," riot and disaster scenarios would, etc.   It'd be a great crime detterant too; I can't imagine that a burglar- home invasion-rapist type would look at the house with the tank parked in the driveway as an easy target, nor would your wandering crackhead looking for some pocket money.

Plus, I can get a hell of a lot more in the way of armor than that cheesy uparmored pickup truck for $300,000.

[Catman]

The bearcat we have is used by a regional swat team covering 52 communities. Does Keene provide regional support to neighboring communities?

[hounddog]

How many SWAT teams were obliterated by lunatic gunmen in the past 40 years?  Back in the dark days when they used the standard issue SWAT trucks? I can see big cities needing this, but seriously. 

So, there has to be a rash of SWAT/SRT teams being flattened before being prepared is acceptable? 

LE has been aware of secondary explosive devices since they were used during WWI to ensnare Allied troops in German trenches.  Their use during the IRA attacks were stuff of legend.  Now, we have them being used in America.

How many specialized LE officers have to be killed before it is ok to use such equipment?  Need I remind YOU what SWAT stands for?

I have to defer to Ben Franklin who said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  Really think about his quote.  It's painfully accurate in this situation.

HOW? 

What makes having an unarmed armored vehicle equal to giving up liberties?  If anything, a better argument is that such a device is being used for perpetuating civil peace.  Civil Peace being the primary mission for LE.

[bing_oh]

That about sums up Keene.  My Bro in law in a cop just outside of Keene, knows it intimately. He was floored when they pulled the stunt. 3 in-laws went to Keene State College.  Sure Hounddog, plenty of bad guys that need neutralizing, and yes, Greg, I'm a tin foil hatted lunatic (but I listen to more NPR than talk radio, sooo....), please take an objective step back.  How many SWAT teams were obliterated by lunatic gunmen in the past 40 years?  Back in the dark days when they used the standard issue SWAT trucks? I can see big cities needing this, but seriously.  No one is going to convince me that a sleepy village like Keene needs an MRAP.  Especially a brand new procured one,  not surplus equipment.  Do you guys remember what that acronym stands for??   Mine Resistant Ambush Protected.  If this is essential equipment for local police forces, in you LEO's opinion, I question the your thought processes.  Maybe the lure of "free" federal money is just too much to resist, so we can rationalize anything.   

I have to defer to Ben Franklin who said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  Really think about his quote.  It's painfully accurate in this situation.

You should probably realize that a Bearcat is not an MRAP and an MRAP is not a Bearcat. The Bearcat is essentially an up-armored pickup truck designed for and marketed to LE. They are not necessarily IED-resistant. MRAP's were designed and sold to the military and were specifically designed to deflect blasts of anti-vehicle mines and, later, IED's in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. These are now being given to civilian PD's because there is a surplus of them coming home without a mission...they are more than armored enough to protect against the light arms that civilian LE deals with in tactical situations, so they are being shoehorned into a role for which they were not specifically designed but do work for.

Now, let's just disregard all that and address the fact that IED's are becoming more and more common in this country. If you look at many of the recent active shooters, you'll see that they frequently are being found with some kind of improvised explosives on their person. Small IED's were used during Columbine. There was a group that planned attacks on abortion clinics that had planned to use IED's planted outside to attack first responders. The knowledge to attach these to cell phones or other short-range remote detonators like we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan is out there and is easily accessible to criminals. How long do you think it's going to be before one of these active shooters with a little more planning decides to plant pipe bombs around his target and detonate them as LE responds? Realistically, IED-resistant specialized vehicles are not out of the realm of common sense in modern LE.

As for this being some kind of attack on civil liberty, I'd have to agree with Tony on this when he asks, "how this is an attack on civil liberty?" There's nothing inherently authoritarian or fascist about LE having a specialized armored vehicle. LE has had access to specialized armored vehicles for decades. The difference between now and 30 years ago is, they're not necessarily budget-restricted because we now get hand-me-downs from the feds. Back then, only the biggest departments had them...not because they were the only ones who needed them, but because they were the only ones who could afford them.

[Catman]

You should probably realize that a Bearcat is not an MRAP and an MRAP is not a Bearcat. The Bearcat is essentially an up-armored pickup truck designed for and marketed to LE. They are not necessarily IED-resistant. MRAP's were designed and sold to the military and were specifically designed to deflect blasts of anti-vehicle mines and, later, IED's in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. These are now being given to civilian PD's because there is a surplus of them coming home without a mission...they are more than armored enough to protect against the light arms that civilian LE deals with in tactical situations, so they are being shoehorned into a role for which they were not specifically designed but do work for.

Now, let's just disregard all that and address the fact that IED's are becoming more and more common in this country. If you look at many of the recent active shooters, you'll see that they frequently are being found with some kind of improvised explosives on their person. Small IED's were used during Columbine. There was a group that planned attacks on abortion clinics that had planned to use IED's planted outside to attack first responders. The knowledge to attach these to cell phones or other short-range remote detonators like we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan is out there and is easily accessible to criminals. How long do you think it's going to be before one of these active shooters with a little more planning decides to plant pipe bombs around his target and detonate them as LE responds? Realistically, IED-resistant specialized vehicles are not out of the realm of common sense in modern LE.

As for this being some kind of attack on civil liberty, I'd have to agree with Tony on this when he asks, "how this is an attack on civil liberty?" There's nothing inherently authoritarian or fascist about LE having a specialized armored vehicle. LE has had access to specialized armored vehicles for decades. The difference between now and 30 years ago is, they're not necessarily budget-restricted because we now get hand-me-downs from the feds. Back then, only the biggest departments had them...not because they were the only ones who needed them, but because they were the only ones who could afford them.

There's a lot of hype out there with MRAP's.  As you said the Bearcat is an armored vehicle with an F450 chassis. 

[Catman]

Could always go with this setup.  Looks safe.

[bing_oh]

There's a lot of hype out there with MRAP's.  As you said the Bearcat is an armored vehicle with an F450 chassis.

It's all over-reaction and conspiracy theory bs. "The feds are giving the cops TANKS!" this and "the police are becoming an occupying army" that. Ok, if the feds were giving M1A2's to local PD's, I could see an issue...that's a tank. But, MRAP's? Comeon...there's nothing particularly scary about an armored truck. The funny thing is, one of the big talking points against the MRAP's (They're mine resistant! What do the cops need something that's mine resistant for?!) is also one of the things that I've heard PD's are bitching about. Part of the mine resistant design means that the MRAP is high off the ground, making them difficult for tactical teams to mount and dismount and leaving an open spot underneath for bad guys to shoot at them.

[hounddog]

The ridiculousness starts with no one here being upset with many police departments using these:











The sad thing is, they all have roughly the same ballistics defeating properties, while more than half of these are more capable than the one people here are crying about.  The only thing the Bear is more capable of doing is having the potential to defeat IED's and landmines.    

I guess having a tall personnel carrier is a bad thing to have.

[hounddog]

How madman sees the police in the US

3rd ID TF 1-64 Baghdad Thunder Run

[Laconian]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2014/02/04/scenes-from-a-militarized-america-iowa-family-terrorized/

[Laconian]

Members of a Des Moines family say they were terrorized in their own home by Ankeny police.
Sally Prince is afraid to stay in her own home. "I've been so traumatized. I don't sleep at night," Prince says.
On Thursday, Ankeny police executed a search warrant looking for someone they suspected of using stolen credit cards to buy clothes and electronics.
The whole search was caught on surveillance video.
Ankeny police tell us they knocked first, but the video shows one officer pounding on the side of the house and seconds later, officers use a battering ram to force their way in.
The video also shows an officer destroying a security camera outside the home.
Two people in the house were arrested on unrelated charges, and the family says none of the items listed on the warrant were found.
Prince's son, Justin Ross, was in the bathroom when police burst in, and he was carrying a gun that he has the legal right to carry. "I stood up, I drew my weapon, I started to get myself together to get out the door, I heard someone in the main room say police. I re-holstered my weapon sat back down and put my hands in my lap," Ross recalls.
"This is over property purchased with a stolen credit card," Prince adds. "It doesn't make any sense to go to such extremes for something that simple."
Two of the people there had no criminal history. Justin Ross was honorably discharged from the Army recently.  The third person does have an arrest record, but the most serious charge was theft and that charge was dismissed.
The family says they would have answered the door if police had just knocked.
Ankeny police executed the warrant in Des Moines because the alleged theft took place in Ankeny, but the suspects live in Des Moines.
Ankeny police say they do not have a written policy governing how search warrants are executed. They're not commenting further because it's an ongoing investigation.

[NomisR]

Can they even go across jurisdictions and do this? 

[NomisR]

And the update on this makes the whole situation even more troubling.  They did it because one of the guys there had a gun permit...

[GoCougs]

Very disturbing. A good lesson here on at least a few levels.

First when WtP vote for more handouts from government; Obamercare, mortgage bailouts, TARP, and C4C, unions, minimum/living wage laws, etc., etc.; we also vote for police militarization. Remember, the two most catastrophic police states in history - Nazi German and Soviet Russia - came to power under the tender auspices of the welfare state; and the welfare state cannot exist without the police state and more of the former begets and demands more of the latter.

Secondly, see, gun nuts were right about gun registration's only practical use is to target law abiding citizens.

[GoCougs]

A good (and hilarious) solution. But then such doors would be outlawed  :

Turkish Police Door Fail

[Madman]

Very disturbing. A good lesson here on at least a few levels.

First when WtP vote for more handouts from government; Obamercare, mortgage bailouts, TARP, and C4C, unions, minimum/living wage laws, etc., etc.; we also vote for police militarization

[Soup DeVille]

And the update on this makes the whole situation even more troubling.  They did it because one of the guys there had a gun permit...

That's just stupid.

Of all the people who've pulled a gun on a cop over the years; how many have had a permit? How many cops have been shot by lawful permit holding gun owners? I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say far, far fewer than those who've been shot by those without the required permits.

Why would you intentionally create a high risk situation for a non violent crime because the suspect is known to be a law abiding gun owner?

[Catman]

That about sums up Keene.  My Bro in law in a cop just outside of Keene, knows it intimately. He was floored when they pulled the stunt. 3 in-laws went to Keene State College.  Sure Hounddog, plenty of bad guys that need neutralizing, and yes, Greg, I'm a tin foil hatted lunatic (but I listen to more NPR than talk radio, sooo....), please take an objective step back.  How many SWAT teams were obliterated by lunatic gunmen in the past 40 years?  Back in the dark days when they used the standard issue SWAT trucks? I can see big cities needing this, but seriously.  No one is going to convince me that a sleepy village like Keene needs an MRAP.  Especially a brand new procured one,  not surplus equipment.  Do you guys remember what that acronym stands for??   Mine Resistant Ambush Protected.  If this is essential equipment for local police forces, in you LEO's opinion, I question the your thought processes.  Maybe the lure of "free" federal money is just too much to resist, so we can rationalize anything.   

I have to defer to Ben Franklin who said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  Really think about his quote.  It's painfully accurate in this situation.

Seriously, nothing happens in Keene, LOL

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/keene-new-hampshire-pumpkin-festival-turns-to-mayhem/

[Speed_Racer]

The Pumpkin Riot of 2014. Never forget haha

[FoMoJo]

Animals .

[12,000 RPM]

Animals .

Black Twitter was having a field day with this.

[AutobahnSHO]

Black Twitter was having a field day with this.

  I read some of it

[hotrodalex]

Black Twitter was having a field day with this.

Black Twitter has a field day with everything.

[Catman]

Black Twitter was having a field day with this.

LOL I bet.  Privileged white animals.

[saxonyron]

Seriously, nothing happens in Keene, LOL

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/keene-new-hampshire-pumpkin-festival-turns-to-mayhem/

Thank God they had their MRAP to overrun the drunken college students who lost control at the FinnaRage Rave. Still no excuse for military vehicles in local PD's. Don't you be drinking that Coolaide!