The 2015 F150

[Galaxy]

Car and Driver has an article about this.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-much-more-will-the-aluminum-2015-ford-f-150-cost-to-insure-and-repair-heres-what-the-experts-say/

A steel hoof for the -2003 F150 cost $ 647, an aluminium hood for the 2004-2008 F150 costs $ 1092.72, which of course makes one gulp, however for the 2009- F150 the aluminium hood costs are down to $880. So they are making progress on the cost front.

I think to summarize it would be fair to say that the new F150 will be more expensive to repair, however it should not be a financial apocalypse, and might actually be cheaper then the 2004-2008 F150.

[Onslaught]

That answered one of my questions. Many of the parts are riveted and glued on not welded. That's a good thing seeing that welding aluminum is more difficult andI don't think many of the guys I've worked with would be good at it. Hell, I'd need some extra practice at it if I'm being honest. That said rivets and glue aren't cheap.

You know it dawned on me last night that you can't use your tools like hammers, grinders and sanders that have been used on normal metal cars when working on aluminum. You need a duplicate set of tools used just for aluminum work. That will cost a boat load but that will only affect the body man himself. Seeing that he must buy all his tools.

[Byteme]

Lots of cars have had aluminum hoods. The miata has an aluminum hood as so did the RX-8 and RX-7. And if it's not a small dent the the cars got a brand new hood.  But replacing a bolt on hood is way different then welded on parts of the car. That's a whole different ball game.

IIRC, in some instances GM put aluminum hoods and trunk lids on some cars back in the 80's

[Byteme]

Found this

Partial list of auto manufacturers who use aluminum body body parts (a fairly old list)

[/size]Acura[/size][/font] [/size] NSX (All), RL (Hood, decklid, fenders and trunk)[/b]

[/size] [/size]Aston Martin[/size][/font] [/size] Vanquish (Body panels), DB9 (hood)

[/size] [/size]BMW[/size][/font] [/size] Z8 & 7 series (body panels), 3, 5, 6 Series (hood, doors,       body panels), X5, X6 Series (Hood, BODY PANELS)

[/size] [/size]Buick[/size][/font] [/size] LeSabre (Hood), Park Avenue (Hood), Rendezvous (Liftgate) [/b]

[/size] [/size]Cadillac[/size][/font] [/size] CTS (hood), Deville (hood), Escalade (liftgate), Seville       (hood)

[/size] [/size]Chevrolet[/size][/font] [/size] Suburban (liftgate), Tahoe (liftgate), Venture (hood)

[/size] [/size]Chrysler[/size][/font] [/size] Concorde, LHS, Pacifica (hoods)

[/size] [/size]Ferrari[/size][/font] [/size]       360 Modena (body panels)

[/size] [/size]Ford[/size][/font] [/size] Expedition (hood & liftgate), Explorer (hood and fenders),       F-150 (hood), Lincoln Navigator (hood & liftgate), Lincoln LS (hood,       fender & trunk lid), Ranger (hood), Lincoln Town Car (hood), GT (body       panels), Mustang GT (hood)

[/size] [/size]GM[/size][/font] [/size] Yukon, Yukon XL (liftgates)

[/size] [/size]Honda[/size][/font] [/size] S2000 (hood), Insight (body panels)

[/size] [/size]Infiniti[/size][/font] [/size] Q (hood & trunk lid) I (hood & trunk lid)

[/size] [/size]Jaguar[/size][/font] [/size] XJ, S-type (Hood)[/b]

[/size] [/size]Lancer[/size][/font] [/size] XJ, S-type (hood), Evolution VIII (roof)[/b]

[/size] [/size]Lexus[/size][/font] [/size]       SC430 (hood)

[/size] [/size]Lotus[/size][/font] [/size] Elise Sport 190 (body panels)

[/size] [/size]Mercedes[/size][/font] [/size]       CL500, SL500 and other models

[/size] [/size]Mercury[/size][/font] [/size]       Mountaineer

[/size] [/size]Nissan[/size][/font] [/size] Altima, Maxima (hoods & trunk lids)[/b]

[/size] [/size]Oldsmobile[/size][/font] [/size] Aurora (hood & trunk lid), Silhouette (hood)

[/size] [/size]Opel[/size][/font] [/size]       Speedster (body panels)

[/size] [/size]Panoz[/size][/font] [/size]       Roadster (body panels)

[/size] [/size]Peugeot[/size][/font] [/size]       407 (Hood)

[/size] [/size]Porsche[/size][/font] [/size]       Cayenne (hood), 911 (hood)

[/size] [/size]Plymouth[/size][/font] [/size] Prowler (hood, doors & trunk lid)

[/size] [/size]Pontiac[/size][/font] [/size]       Bonneville, Montana (hoods)

[/size] [/size]Range Rover / Land       Rover[/size][/font] [/size] Hoods,       doors, side panels

[/size] [/size]Saab[/size][/font] [/size]       9-2X (Hood)

[/size] [/size]Subaru[/size][/font] [/size] 9-2X (Hood), GT (hood), Legacy (hood, bumpers, sunroof)

[/size] [/size]Volvo[/size][/font] [/size]       (Hoods & trunk lids)

[Onslaught]

Most of those parts are bolt on. Shops just figure new ones when the old ones have damage on them. That's never been a big deal. Structural parts on the other hand are a big deal.

We'll perhaps not a big deal. But still more of a problem. Oh, I also call BS in ford's clame that 90% of buyers will live near a shop that can do aluminum work. The shops will say they can but most of them can't. I only know of one in Charlotte that has all the things needed to work on that stuff the CORRECT way.

[GoCougs]

If you torch annealed a steel fender that was damaged like that, you could probably pull a dent like that out as well.  But it's a different game when your car is actually painted versus that unpainted aluminum kit car body.  You don't take a torch directly to a painted panel, you need to strip all of the paint off first.

Smaller repairs, like paintless dent removal (for door dings and hail damage) is more difficult with most aluminum alloys commonly used for automotive purposes (2000 or 6000 series).

Lots of bare steel body panel repair on YouTube (body panels are stripped before body work is done), and they all ultimately use body filler in the end, even on high-end cars/customs. I've never seen or heard of steel body panel work as done in that Cobra video. The biggest different is AL is more ductile and malleable than mild steel.

[MX793]

Lots of bare steel body panel repair on YouTube (body panels are stripped before body work is done), and they all ultimately use body filler in the end, even on high-end cars/customs. I've never seen or heard of steel body panel work as done in that Cobra video. The biggest different is AL is more ductile and malleable than mild steel.

That depends greatly on the alloy.  6061, for instance. isn't a particularly good alloy for forming.  The other factor is thickness.  The aluminum body on that Cobra replica was like a fair bit thicker than your typical steel body panel, leaving more room to file and grind it smooth.

[Onslaught]

I do heat and file work on metal like that now. I even have the exact same metal file that guy in the video has. It's not something most people do anymore. And depending on how bad it is you could still need filler.
The point of heating and shaving like that is to use the smallest amount as possible.

[Onslaught]

That depends greatly on the alloy.  6061, for instance. isn't a particularly good alloy for forming.  The other factor is thickness.  The aluminum body on that Cobra replica was like a fair bit thicker than your typical steel body panel, leaving more room to file and grind it smooth.

Yeah, the thickness of that cobra metal is much more then the stuff they use on aluminum parts on normal cars.

[mzziaz]

Not so sure about that. It depends on alloys. One thing for sure, I've never seen or heard of a repair like this with a steel fender: Huge dent and creases to 100% smooth on an unpainted 1/4 panel - Kirkham University Aluminum Fender Dent Repair.

That is incredible impressive workmanship

[FoMoJo]

That is incredible impressive workmanship

Amazing.  I wonder how long it took.

[Onslaught]

Amazing.  I wonder how long it took.

Way longer then these clips and TV shows tell you. Some of these shows piss me off. They show a car go from rust bucket to show car in an hour show. Gives normal people the wrong idea about this shit.

[Byteme]

Most of those parts are bolt on. Shops just figure new ones when the old ones have damage on them. That's never been a big deal. Structural parts on the other hand are a big deal.

I know, but it shows manufacturers are using more and more AL in their products.

We'll perhaps not a big deal. But still more of a problem. Oh, I also call BS in ford's clame that 90% of buyers will live near a shop that can do aluminum work. The shops will say they can but most of them can't. I only know of one in Charlotte that has all the things needed to work on that stuff the CORRECT way.

Didn't the article say within 1 hour of a shop?   That essentially means everybody in a place like Houston is near 1 shop ( if you figure 1 hour is a fifty mile radius) if that one shop is in the center of town.  Given that Ford's claim p[ropbably is correct.  The concern is how many shop bays are available to properly service how many vehicles.  For example, having a certified shop as close as next door is useless if they are booked solid for the next 90 days.

[FoMoJo]

Way longer then these clips and TV shows tell you. Some of these shows piss me off. They show a car go from rust bucket to show car in an hour show. Gives normal people the wrong idea about this shit.

Considering it looked impossible to start with, I'd be impressed if it took less than a week of gentle tapping.

[mzziaz]

Considering it looked impossible to start with, I'd be impressed if it took less than a week of gentle tapping.

It took about 30 hours according to a comment below the video.

[Galaxy]

In standard aluminium production since 1993.

[Soup DeVille]

In standard aluminium production since 1993.

Yeah, that's a great example of an affordable work truck.

[Galaxy]

Yeah, that's a great example of an affordable work truck.

It was cost competitive with the steel competition though. Audi swallowed the cost of the new tools the shops needed.

[Onslaught]

It was cost competitive with the steel competition though. Audi swallowed the cost of the new tools the shops needed.

Um, manufactures don't buy the tools that shops use. The shops buy some of the larger things needed like frame machines and welders and the tech's must buy everything else.

[Byteme]

Um, manufactures don't buy the tools that shops use. The shops buy some of the larger things needed like frame machines and welders and the tech's must buy everything else.

I haven't been in a dealers service bay for years so I don't know if they do this today. 

Years go you could go in a dealership's service bay (not body shop)  and see lots of tools desgined specifically to service the manufacturer's cars.  I recall seeing a wall of Ford special tools in my local shop when I was younger.  The manufacturer made them or had them made and the dealerships had them.  Did the car manufacturer provide them to the dealership for free or did the dealer have to purchase them?  I'd guess the dealership had to buy them, but I really don't know that for a fact. 

[Galaxy]

Um, manufactures don't buy the tools that shops use. The shops buy some of the larger things needed like frame machines and welders and the tech's must buy everything else.

I'm 90% sure that Audi, at least partly, paid for the aluminium tools, because dealers complained. The second part differs country to country (the first part perhaps as well), in Germany (probably most of Europe) the tolls are always supplied by the employer.

[Onslaught]

Manufactures have specialty tool for the mechanics side of things. I'm not sure if the dealership must buy these tools or not. I never asked my mechanic friends back when our place was a Ford/Mazda dealer if those specialty tools came free.
Body shops don't get shit. First of all they really don't make many specialty tools for that line of work in the first place. Second, most dealers don't have body shops anymore and send their work to a independent shop. And I personally don't
know of any shop that buys it's tech's the tools needed. Never even heard of such a thing.

[Soup DeVille]

It was cost competitive with the steel competition though. Audi swallowed the cost of the new tools the shops needed.

In a low volume luxury segment which isn't typically the main profit center for a company, and in which people don't mind as much paying a premium for repairs (and are less likely to try to pull stumps with)

[Soup DeVille]

I'm 90% sure that Audi, at least partly, paid for the aluminium tools, because dealers complained. The second part differs country to country (the first part perhaps as well), in Germany (probably most of Europe) the tolls are always supplied by the employer.

Well, that never happens here ( or at least is very rare)

[Onslaught]

Well, that never happens here ( or at least is very rare)

It be nice. Seeing what's in my tool box cost more then the two cars in my garage put together.

Granted I did get my MX-5 for $2K!

[mzziaz]

Yeah, techs buying their own tools doesn't happen here.

[Byteme]

Body shops don't get shit. First of all they really don't make many specialty tools for that line of work in the first place. Second, most dealers don't have body shops anymore and send their work to a independent shop. And I personally don't
know of any shop that buys it's tech's the tools needed. Never even heard of such a thing.

I know, I was asking about the mechanics side.  mainly wondering who paid for them.  I have a good friend that was a Ford front end mechanic.  He bought tons of tools, except for the specialty stuff the dealership supplied.    Back in the day body tools weren't car specific. Even with aluminum they probably won't be car specific but will be material specific.

[Onslaught]

Most body tools work on everything it's true. It sucks when you work at an independent shop like I do now. I had to run out and buy all kinds of stuff to work on God damn German cars. Sockets and shit that only those German fucks use.
Sometimes the domestics like to come out with some kind of strange ass bolt or what have you. Then you must buy a tool to work on that one car that uses that one bolt. I talked to someone in the industry about that one day. He admitted
that the bolt/screw/clip makers supply the bolts for free to the automaker just so people must pay for the tools to build and work on the cars.

Now as for aluminum. By the book you should have duplicate tools for working on that. Anything you have to work on normal metals shouldn't be used on aluminum because of contamination. So you should have two of everything. Now I can tell
you that not too many people bother doing that.

[Soup DeVille]

He admitted
that the bolt/screw/clip makers supply the bolts for free to the automaker just so people must pay for the tools to build and work on the cars.

Yeah, I don't buy that at all.

You're talking about hundreds of thousands of bolts/clips/doohickeys; and relatively few (expensive) tools.

Cars are designed to be put together easily, 45 seconds or less per operation, and that's the main reason why funky fasteners get designed. So that they can be installed quickly and accurately; sometimes magazine or belt fed tools mounted on the end of robots do it. Engineers trip over themselves trying to save a couple of seconds from an operation on the line and spend thousands and thousands to do so.

[Onslaught]

Yeah, I don't buy that at all.

You're talking about hundreds of thousands of bolts/clips/doohickeys; and relatively few (expensive) tools.

Cars are designed to be put together easily, 45 seconds or less per operation, and that's the main reason why funky fasteners get designed. So that they can be installed quickly and accurately; sometimes magazine or belt fed tools mounted on the end of robots do it. Engineers trip over themselves trying to save a couple of seconds from an operation on the line and spend thousands and thousands to do so.

Not just the tool makers. I was told that Ford or whoever buys the stuff needed to use them too. I'm not sure if it's true or not, I was just asking the guy why they make such small little changes on something like a star bit or a clip that has worked great for 10 years. And that's what he told me and he did work for Ford. I can't say that I know for sure if it's true but people being in bed with each other like that wouldn't floor me.