Mercedes Sprinter

[TBR]

You still haven't proven that the Sprinter is significantly better. And looking at the Sprinter's cg, it wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that it is even more prone to roll over than the American vans.

"And, the Sprinter or an expensive mini-bus are the only options for many people who need 9+ passengar capability, and in that case the Sprinter is a much better value."

Maybe in Texas. Anywhere else you can just buy the others.

And looking around, a minibus really isn't that expensive. I found a new 16-passenger GMC for under $36k "before manufacturer discounts".

Was the Sprinter not "frightly expensive" at $5000 more than an Econoline? Yet a $6000 difference "really isn't that expensive"? Explain how that makes sense!

Also, as far as I know no one has tested the Sprinter's crash worthiness, but I will look for a video or something.  

[ifcar]

NHTSA Study: http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/studies.../15passvan.html

Other: http://www.safetyforum.com/passengervans/ (go to: "Why the Carnage?")

Unless my Firefox word search has failed me again, there is no comparison between the Sprinter and the American vans on either of those pages.  

[ifcar]

"Was the Sprinter not "frightly expensive" at $5000 more than an Econoline? Yet a $6000 difference "really isn't that expensive"? Explain how that makes sense!"

There are other advantages to a minibus though, such as much better seating accommodations that let you realistically fit the advertised number of people. You were acting as though those vehicles aren't close to the price of a 15-passenger van, and they aren't.

And I wouldn't want to try to drive a Sprinter loaded with 15 passengers.  

[TBR]

I am still looking for something like that, but I believe vans in Europe are required to pass the same crash tests cars are, here they don't have to pass any.

Also, it isn't just TX:
"The National Traffic Motor Vehicle Safety Act, meanwhile, is an existing federal law that prohibits a dealership from selling a 15-passenger van to a school, church or other entity for the purpose of transporting children through teenagers of traditional high school age."

[ifcar]

And the Sprinter is a 15-passenger van. So you can't buy one of those either. What's this $6,000 safety advantage you kept talking about then?

[TBR]

And the Sprinter is a 15-passenger van. So you can't buy one of those either. What's this $6,000 safety advantage you kept talking about then?

Actually, it isn't. They don't make a 15 passenger version. That said, I am not sure if the law lists specific models or  makes a completel generalization And, at the publishing of the NHTSA study and the approval of the law American style large vans were the only ones available. Once again, European fullsize vans have to pass the same safety requirements their cars do, American ones don't (which is why Dodge was able to make the Ram Van for as long as they did without making major mechanical changes).  

[TBR]

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/sprinter_crashtest.html

[TBR]

Yeah, this van has great safety structure:
(they were making the same basic thing until CY 2002!)

[TBR]

"Robert Hooker with Eliseco Systems of Colorado runs vehicle tests in dozens of cases against carmakers. Hooker is testing a 1995 Ford 15-passenger van. It?s a test for a lawsuit involving the crash of the South Carolina church van in 2000.

The test van was loaded with water tanks to simulate 13 passengers plus the driver. Instruments were attached to record steering, speed - all the forces on the van.

The van tipped over on its outriggers at 40 miles an hour. At slower speeds, the van did better ? it did not lift off the ground in two tests at 25 miles an hour and one at 30 miles an hour. In another test ? the double lane change that?s designed to simulate an emergency maneuver, the van tipped at 35 miles an hour.

The final test is one engineers call the fish hook ? it?s designed to push a vehicle to its tipping point. The van lifted at 35 miles an hour."

[ifcar]

And the Sprinter is a 15-passenger van. So you can't buy one of those either. What's this $6,000 safety advantage you kept talking about then?

Actually, it isn't. They don't make a 15 passenger version. That said, I am not sure if the law lists specific models or  makes a completel generalization And, at the publishing of the NHTSA study and the approval of the law American style large vans were the only ones available. Once again, European fullsize vans have to pass the same safety requirements their cars do, American ones don't (which is why Dodge was able to make the Ram Van for as long as they did without making major mechanical changes).

So that's your criticism, that a version of the other vans that the Sprinter doesn't even have was judged unsafe, so the Sprinter is the safest?

And NHTSA has in fact tested the Econoline and Express in its NCAP program in frontal protection and rollover resistance, the only tests I saw on the Sprinter link anyway. The Express got the highest score in the frontal and passed the rollover test, and the Econoline did well on the frontal test but tipped up in the rollover maneuver.

You still haven't produced anything about the Sprinter's side protection.

[TBR]

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/stu...merAdvisory.htm

[TBR]

And the Sprinter is a 15-passenger van. So you can't buy one of those either. What's this $6,000 safety advantage you kept talking about then?

Actually, it isn't. They don't make a 15 passenger version. That said, I am not sure if the law lists specific models or  makes a completel generalization And, at the publishing of the NHTSA study and the approval of the law American style large vans were the only ones available. Once again, European fullsize vans have to pass the same safety requirements their cars do, American ones don't (which is why Dodge was able to make the Ram Van for as long as they did without making major mechanical changes).

So that's your criticism, that a version of the other vans that the Sprinter doesn't even have was judged unsafe, so the Sprinter is the safest?

And NHTSA has in fact tested the Econoline and Express in its NCAP program in frontal protection and rollover resistance, the only tests I saw on the Sprinter link anyway. The Express got the highest score in the frontal and passed the rollover test, and the Econoline did well on the frontal test but tipped up in the rollover maneuver.

You still haven't produced anything about the Sprinter's side protection.

I am still looking.  

[TBR]

I can't find a thing, so I guess I am going to have to admit defeat here. HOWEVER, I for one would  definitely trust a Mercedes developed vehicle over two that have been declared to be dangerous by the NHTSA.

[ifcar]

They said that stability control solved the rollover problem with the Express, and also blamed poor maintenance and unskilled drivers in the most recent link you provided. I'll look back at the others now.  

[ifcar]

...And I couldn't find the spot where NHTSA "declared the GM vans to be dangerous".

[TBR]

Yeah, after looking at all of that it seems like the Econoline is the one you really want to avoid, apparantly the very long rear overhang causes a lot of fishtailing problems, which of course effects stability in a vehicle with such a cg. As far maintance/driver skill, the safety of a vehicle shouldn't rely on an experienced driver and perfect maintance if a CDL isn't required. The government needs to either slap a CDL requirement on those things or require school bus level crash tests  for passenger versions. As for me, I'll still say a little prayer every time I get in one.

[TBR]

...And I couldn't find the spot where NHTSA "declared the GM vans to be dangerous".

That study declared all 15 passenger vans dangerous. Granted, the GM twins have been through a redesign since then but IIRC they didn't change too much mechanically.

[ifcar]

Keeping the tire pressure within the recommended range isn't exactly demanding, they said 75% of 15-passenger vans didn't. And they said the Express's stability control system worked very well.


I stand by my assertion on the previous page that it is the best all-around full size van, $5,000 less with more power. The only disadvantages are less cargo space and significantly lower gas mileage.

[Secret Chimp]

Yeah, after looking at all of that it seems like the Econoline is the one you really want to avoid, apparantly the very long rear overhang causes a lot of fishtailing problems, which of course effects stability in a vehicle with such a cg. As far maintance/driver skill, the safety of a vehicle shouldn't rely on an experienced driver and perfect maintance if a CDL isn't required. The government needs to either slap a CDL requirement on those things or require school bus level crash tests  for passenger versions. As for me, I'll still say a little prayer every time I get in one.

That problem only came up when there was a lot of weight behind the rear wheels. If you keep the fatties up front it shouldn't be as dangerous.

[Catman]

I see alot of businesses going to the Sprinter around here, mostly independent contractors.  I think it's desirable because of its fuel mileage and the fact that it's a good compromise between a traditional van and cube van.

Dodge is also trying to sell it as a prisoned transport, SWAT van, etc.  As a prisoner transport I can definately see an improvement over a regular van due to improved access.  BTW, the fleet site says the engine is "premium".

 

[cawimmer430]

Nice job Andre.  

BTW, I don't see how the Sprinter "getting more power" would make up for any shortcomings? How many Sprinter users will care about a higher top speed when you folks have speed limits? Does a 1.6 second quicker 0-60 time really help in everyday driving and getting to ones destination on time? I don't think so. The European Sprinter comes with even less powerful engine choices, yet no one complains about it needing more to get to its destination on time. In most cases, you're at the mercy of traffic on the highway or city etc.

This is just like people saying "I will take a Ferrari 550 Maranello over a 1996 Mitsubishi Pajero diesel because on a highway with a speed limit of 88 mph, I will get there before the diesel Pajero". How? The Ferrari will have a high top speed, a quicker acceleration, but if both cars are limited to 88 mph because of the law, then I don't see how the Ferrari's overkill of power will make a difference?  <_<

[ifcar]

The current Sprinter's passing, merging, and towing power is insufficient both against the competing full-size vans in this country and against basic standards of sufficiency. When loaded with passenger and/or cargo, getting onto an interstate highway would be quite a challenge.  

[SaltyDog]

Nice job Andre.  

BTW, I don't see how the Sprinter "getting more power" would make up for any shortcomings? How many Sprinter users will care about a higher top speed when you folks have speed limits? Does a 1.6 second quicker 0-60 time really help in everyday driving and getting to ones destination on time? I don't think so. The European Sprinter comes with even less powerful engine choices, yet no one complains about it needing more to get to its destination on time. In most cases, you're at the mercy of traffic on the highway or city etc.

This is just like people saying "I will take a Ferrari 550 Maranello over a 1996 Mitsubishi Pajero diesel because on a highway with a speed limit of 88 mph, I will get there before the diesel Pajero". How? The Ferrari will have a high top speed, a quicker acceleration, but if both cars are limited to 88 mph because of the law, then I don't see how the Ferrari's overkill of power will make a difference?  <_<

I can deal with a 13 second 0-60 time, but I can see how some people are weary of highway merges, especially in some places.

[Submariner]

I hope the bring they new Sprinter to the US, the current one is the best fullsize van available but its weak engine has kept it from being a serious contender..

We get it as the dodge Sprinter.  There have always been reports of us getting one with the E-320 CDI's engine, but none have proven to be true.    

[TBR]

I hope the bring they new Sprinter to the US, the current one is the best fullsize van available but its weak engine has kept it from being a serious contender..

We get it as the dodge Sprinter.  There have always been reports of us getting one with the E-320 CDI's engine, but none have proven to be true.  

But not the new model.

[93JC]

What new model?

[TBR]

Stuttgart, Nov 22, 2005
For ten years now the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter has led the way in what has long been known as the ?Sprinter class? in Europe. With some 1.3 million units sold, the Sprinter?s record as the market leader for vans with gross vehicle weights of around 3.5 t speaks for itself. A new Sprinter is due for launch in the spring of next year and will once again set the benchmark. Its emotive design represents a flawless blend of form and function and whets the appetite for the innovative and practical technology under the surface.
Versatile: body and engine variants to meet all requirements

With three wheelbases, four body lengths ranging from 5243 mm to 7343 mm, three roof heights and a wealth of body options, the new Sprinter is even more flexible than its predecessor. The new range includes variants between 3.0 and 5.0 t gross vehicle weight and, as a panel van with a load capacity of 7 to 17 m? for example, it meets almost every conceivable requirement.

The same is true of the engine variants. The powerful, cutting-edge four and six-cylinder CDI diesel engines with outputs ranging from 65 kW (88 hp) to 135 kW (184 hp) respond to every need. All of the Euro 4/EU 4 diesel engines are fitted with a particulate filter. The V6 petrol powerplant, meanwhile, delivers exceptional levels of comfort and effortless performance with its output of 190 kW (258 hp).

Among the many innovations of the new Sprinter are a variant with 4.6 t gross vehicle weight and space-saving Super-Single tyres for the rear wheels.

Safety first: ADAPTIVE ESP? for all models, strong brakes, bi-xenon head-lamps

The already exemplary safety features of the outgoing Sprinter have been improved on still further in the new model. Various different bodyshell measures have taken the vehicle?s crash responses to a whole new level. Added to which, thorax airbags are now also available in addition to the driver?s and front passenger airbags and windowbags fitted in its predecessor. Another highlight is the standard addition on all models of ADAPTIVE ESP? - the latest generation of the Electronic Stability Program (ESP?). Its extended functionality allows this system to, among other things, measure the weight of the vehicle?s load, calculate the centre of gravity and adapt its responses precisely according to these factors.

The Sprinter?s chassis is even more agile than before and now offers even greater active safety. Included as standard on all models are 16-inch wheels with a highly effective and durable braking system, including disc brakes all round, the anti-lock braking system (ABS), electronic brake force distribution and hydraulic Brake Assist (BAS).

Safety is further enhanced by the optional bi-xenon headlamps with the additional Add-Light System and cornering light function - a new dimension in light and therefore safety technology for vans.

Convenience-enhancing: extensive standard equipment, innovative extras

Convenience is also an important issue in a van and the new Sprinter ticks this box with standard-fitted power windows and central locking with radio remote control. Another noteworthy feature is the new interior concept with even better ergonomics and a substantial increase in stowage areas inside the driver?s cab. This is another area in which the Sprinter raises the bar in its class ? and the same applies to the large number of new individual options headed by the innovative access system, Keyless Entry and Slide. This system provides automatic locking and unlocking of all doors and automatic opening and closing of the sliding load compartment door.

The launch of the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter will begin at the end of March 2006. The new van will be produced at the plants in D?sseldorf (panel van and crew-bus) and Ludwigsfelde near Berlin (pickups and chassis incl. crewcabs).

 

[93JC]

You do realize Andr? made that up, right?

[TBR]

I hope you're not serious, but if you are:
http://www.emercedesbenz.com/Nov05/22NewMe...NextSpring.html

[93JC]

I looked for that article all over the net and couldn't find it, so I just assumed he made it up.