Car Chat

[RomanChariot]

There has been a 220 like that parked around the corner from me for the last week except it is the gas model.

[Morris Minor]

Came across this Daimler media photo showing a US-spec 1968 Mercedes-Benz 220D. Yeah, a 220D. People whined about the slow 240D, but this is a 220D. 60-horsepower, baby. Had no idea that these were sold in the US at the time. I always thought the 240D was the starting model for the /8 range in North America.

Slow. But still beautiful.

[Morris Minor]

Thanks to Doug Murro I've had a revelation.
I could never understand why rich & otherwise intelligent people would buy luxury brand cars that are finicky & unreliable. They are picky people & expect excellence... and they are well aware when they are being ripped off... including stupidly high dealer servicing bills. A keen awareness of rip off situations is one quality that helps people get rich in the first place.

Anyway, Murro explained that premium-brand buyers don't care that their cars are low in the Consumer Reports pecking order, because they ditch them before the problems start to show up... two years usually, three if they're feeling brave. Furthermore they buy the primo servicing & warranty packages upfront, which remove most routine ownership hassles.

So bottom line you make sure you're rich enough to take the depreciation, churn the cars, & let the dealers handle flogging the old ones off, to people who probably don't anticipate the bills that will come with keeping that 2018 Audi Q8 on the road.

[r0tor]

That...or people buy an Alfa Romeo because it's actually a fantastic car to drive and will put up with potential grief to enjoy driving

[AutobahnSHO]

That...or people buy an Alfa Romeo because it's actually a fantastic car to drive and will put up with potential grief to enjoy driving

Lambos, Q8, etc... Are also all excellent cars.

[RomanChariot]

It has always been that way with high end cars. That's why they depreciate so bad. The owner of a company I used to work for bought a used Mercedes S55 about 10 years ago. It was a year or two old and had already depreciated by about 40%. Within the first year he owned it he had to have the transmission replaced which luckily was under warranty because it would have cost him $15,000 otherwise. He said the seats were amazing.

[shp4man]

Another reason why Miata is always the answer. 

[FoMoJo]

Thanks to Doug Murro I've had a revelation.
I could never understand why rich & otherwise intelligent people would buy luxury brand cars that are finicky & unreliable. They are picky people & expect excellence... and they are well aware when they are being ripped off... including stupidly high dealer servicing bills. A keen awareness of rip off situations is one quality that helps people get rich in the first place.

Anyway, Murro explained that premium-brand buyers don't care that their cars are low in the Consumer Reports pecking order, because they ditch them before the problems start to show up... two years usually, three if they're feeling brave. Furthermore they buy the primo servicing & warranty packages upfront, which remove most routine ownership hassles.

So bottom line you make sure you're rich enough to take the depreciation, churn the cars, & let the dealers handle flogging the old ones off, to people who probably don't anticipate the bills that will come with keeping that 2018 Audi Q8 on the road.

Oddly, and sadly, a lot of people who can barely make the payments lease high-end cars, especially Mercedes, just for appearances.  It's simply a status symbol to make others believe that they're successful.  I know quite a few of them.

[FoMoJo]

Another reason why Miata is always the answer. 

Only if you can fit into the damn things.

[Raza]

It has always been that way with high end cars. That's why they depreciate so bad. The owner of a company I used to work for bought a used Mercedes S55 about 10 years ago. It was a year or two old and had already depreciated by about 40%. Within the first year he owned it he had to have the transmission replaced which luckily was under warranty because it would have cost him $15,000 otherwise. He said the seats were amazing.

It hasn't always been that way. Until the mid to late 90s, longevity, durability, and reliability were part of the luxury package. Look at a Benz from the 80s. They were built to last. The focus on technology, which becomes outdated quickly, was a big part of the shift to disposable luxury.

[MX793]

It hasn't always been that way. Until the mid to late 90s, longevity, durability, and reliability were part of the luxury package. Look at a Benz from the 80s. They were built to last. The focus on technology, which becomes outdated quickly, was a big part of the shift to disposable luxury.

Older, flagship Mercs had some techno gadgets that are known to be troublesome.  Vacuum-based power locks?

[Raza]

Older, flagship Mercs had some techno gadgets that are known to be troublesome.  Vacuum-based power locks?

Occasionally on top, top models, right?

[AutobahnSHO]

Oddly, and sadly, a lot of people who can barely make the payments lease high-end cars, especially Mercedes, just for appearances.  It's simply a status symbol to make others believe that they're successful.  I know quite a few of them.

I see TONS of that on the street. At work I know how much people are making by rank- they don't impress me with their car when I make more than them...

I read something about "how to retire rich" the other day (all the standard "save early, live below your means, etc...) and one blurb said "break from the herd"- don't do what everyone else is doing. Dave Ramsey says, "It's weird to live without debt. BE WEIRD!"

I'm perfectly happy in my house that's only 2/3 or 1/2 the size of my peers' houses. Less fuss, less muss, less $$$$.

[RomanChariot]

It hasn't always been that way. Until the mid to late 90s, longevity, durability, and reliability were part of the luxury package. Look at a Benz from the 80s. They were built to last. The focus on technology, which becomes outdated quickly, was a big part of the shift to disposable luxury.

Mass production high end cars (Mercedes S class, BMW 7 series, etc.) will always have higher depreciation because so many are bought as status symbols. They only hold that status for a couple of years until something shinier comes along. Having high long term maintenance costs makes it worse. For low production quantity vehicles the equation changes.

[MX793]

Occasionally on top, top models, right?

The vacuum locking system was used on W123 S class of the 70s and 80s.  Potentially beyond (though I'm pretty sure they moved to traditional locks in the 80s).

Certainly some older, simpler, Mercs were built to last forever.  The old 240Ds seem nearly unkillable.  But as tech progressed, they got worse and worse.  Compounded by issues like the biodegradable wire insulation used through the 90s.  Lots of electronic bells and whistles, on top of the normal electronic systems of the modern era (like digital ignition and fuel injection) combined with soy-based wire insulation that breaks down in less than 10 years (if the rodents don't eat it first), what could go wrong?!

[cawimmer430]

The vacuum locking system was used on W123 S class of the 70s and 80s.  Potentially beyond (though I'm pretty sure they moved to traditional locks in the 80s).

Certainly some older, simpler, Mercs were built to last forever.  The old 240Ds seem nearly unkillable.  But as tech progressed, they got worse and worse.  Compounded by issues like the biodegradable wire insulation used through the 90s.  Lots of electronic bells and whistles, on top of the normal electronic systems of the modern era (like digital ignition and fuel injection) combined with soy-based wire insulation that breaks down in less than 10 years (if the rodents don't eat it first), what could go wrong?!

Here's the fix. 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=elPOBCvOHlY



The biodegradable wiring is forced by the EU. It's supposed to make recycling easier. Plenty of cars from the early 1990s with that wiring are still an everyday sight here.

[Morris Minor]

It hasn't always been that way. Until the mid to late 90s, longevity, durability, and reliability were part of the luxury package. Look at a Benz from the 80s. They were built to last. The focus on technology, which becomes outdated quickly, was a big part of the shift to disposable luxury.

You actually have to be quite a bit richer than the sticker prices indicate. The gold star upfront maintenance packages, then be able to carry the miserable residuals at the end, when it's time to cycle in a replacement and so stay on the disposable luxury treadmill.

The dentist I used to go to had a new 7-series. Went there one day & he was super pissed: the latest episode in his litany of woes with the car was arriving at work, & being unable to close one of the windows. He called the dealer & told them to deal with it. Before they showed up one of Atlanta's famous gully-washer rainstorms rolled through...


I wonder if any wealthy dentists drive Toyotas. Might scare off the country club MILFs.

[Soup DeVille]

Lots of dentists, doctors, and even lawyers drive Lexus/Toyotas. Some even drive Buicks.

[FoMoJo]

Lots of dentists, doctors, and even lawyers drive Lexus/Toyotas. Some even drive Buicks.

Didn't Lexus, a few years back, pretty much replace Mercedes as the "doctor's" car of choice?

[MX793]

Here's the fix. 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=elPOBCvOHlY

It's a bad design.  The components are prone to failing, and when one component fails, the whole system fails.  With electrical locks, if one actuator fails, the others still work.

The biodegradable wiring is forced by the EU. It's supposed to make recycling easier. Plenty of cars from the early 1990s with that wiring are still an everyday sight here.

Different climates resulted in faster or slower decay of the wires.  Germany, most of Europe in general, is a pretty mild climate.  And replacing entire wire harnesses in a Mercedes is not an inexpensive proposition.

[cawimmer430]

It's a bad design.  The components are prone to failing, and when one component fails, the whole system fails.  With electrical locks, if one actuator fails, the others still work.

When does this usually fail? The W123 counts as one of the most reliable Benzes ever made and most of the issues with them appear at extremely high mileage and age.

Different climates resulted in faster or slower decay of the wires.  Germany, most of Europe in general, is a pretty mild climate.  And replacing entire wire harnesses in a Mercedes is not an inexpensive proposition.

Not sure how the climate influences the durability of the wires, but it would be interesting to see if their demise is faster in warmer regions than cooler regions. All I know is that the EU has gone full eco-retard, now more than ever. Now they want a complete ban of the internal combustion engine by at least 2050 - the sooner the better. This also includes classic cars...

[MX793]

When does this usually fail? The W123 counts as one of the most reliable Benzes ever made and most of the issues with them appear at extremely high mileage and age.

Do inoperable power door locks prevent a car from being driven?  The engines, transmissions, and stuff you need to drive on those old W123s are reliable, that doesn't mean other parts are reliable.

Not sure how the climate influences the durability of the wires, but it would be interesting to see if their demise is faster in warmer regions than cooler regions. All I know is that the EU has gone full eco-retard, now more than ever. Now they want a complete ban of the internal combustion engine by at least 2050 - the sooner the better. This also includes classic cars...

Generally, higher temperatures make plastics break down faster.  Air quality can have an effect as well.  Ozone can attack some plastics and rubbers and is found in higher concentrations in some places than others.

I'd also point out that other than Volvos from the late 70s to mid 80s, I'm not familiar with other EU brand autos with crumbling wire insulation issues.  And Mercedes' issues were from the 90s, well after Volvo's issues were identified and corrected.

[Laconian]

Yeah, a friend of mine was a big 240 fiend and the crummy wiring was something he'd always have to deal with when he'd get a "new" car.

[cawimmer430]

Do inoperable power door locks prevent a car from being driven?  The engines, transmissions, and stuff you need to drive on those old W123s are reliable, that doesn't mean other parts are reliable.

Just don't lock the doors. Problem solved... 

Generally, higher temperatures make plastics break down faster.  Air quality can have an effect as well.  Ozone can attack some plastics and rubbers and is found in higher concentrations in some places than others.

Wouldn't carmakers compensate for this?

[MX793]

Just don't lock the doors. Problem solved... 



Wouldn't carmakers compensate for this?

Clearly most did, since only Volvo and Mercedes had this issue.  And Volvo's issues occurred, and were fixed, years before Mercedes made the same mistake.

[cawimmer430]

The past meets the present - old school castle and new high-tech car. Thought it was a fun comparison. 

[Morris Minor]

Combination of reasons but we have not run the Infiniti in two weeks, battery's a bit long in the tooth - marginal ampz when cranking, so it's on the charger.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Transformer cars ... real ones

http://www.letrons.com/index_eng.html

[Laconian]

Combination of reasons but we have not run the Infiniti in two weeks, battery's a bit long in the tooth - marginal ampz when cranking, so it's on the charger.

My Infiniti had that problem too. Maybe the keyless entry system draws too much power.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Make sure that battery is topped off with water.