Car Chat

[CaminoRacer]

Europlug is higher voltage (250VAC) but much lower amperage at 2.5A.  Much less power than a standard American outlet and will actually take longer to charge an EV.

UK outlets are around 230VAC and can handle up to 13A.  These should charge faster than an American 120V/15A, but not as fast as an American 240V/50A.

Interesting, I figured Europe was the same as the UK.

[afty]

It's not just voltage, it's power.  Typical Tesla has a max charge rate of 11.5 kW.  A standard American outlet can deliver 1.8kW, plus there will be conversion losses since batteries need DC.  A NEMA 15-50 can output 12kW, granted there will be some losses when you convert from AC to DC.  Still, you are going to be much closer to the max possible charge rate for a Tesla.

Europlug is higher voltage (250VAC) but much lower amperage at 2.5A.  Much less power than a standard American outlet and will actually take longer to charge an EV.

UK outlets are around 230VAC and can handle up to 13A.  These should charge faster than an American 120V/15A, but not as fast as an American 240V/50A.

Can't speak for Canada (assume it's the same as the US), but US households all have 240VAC 3-phase service into the building which is then broken out at 115VAC single phase at the breaker box to go to the outlets.  Major appliances like clothes dryers and electric ranges usually run on 220-240VAC, so there will usually be a few 240VAC 3-phase outlets.  Many home garages don't have such an outlet, but it's not hard for an electrician to install one since the power source is there.

Nit: You have to derate to 80% to account for continuous power draw.  So a NEMA 14-50 can safely deliver 40A continuous, or 9.6 kW.

Do Germans typically street park their cars overnight?  Or do they park in shared garages?  If it's shared garages, I'd expect the garage owners to install L2 chargers as EVs become more popular.  If it's more typical to street park, I could see two possible outcomes: (1) L2 chargers everywhere on the street, or (2) fewer DC fast chargers that people have to visit on occasion.  I'd bet on #2, which might not be as bad as it sounds -- here in the People's Republic of California, many DC fast chargers are located at shopping centers, so you can charge while you go to the grocery store/Target/out to dinner/etc. 

[cawimmer430]

But you are missing an important part. Currently you have to visit a gas station every-time you fuel up. With electric cars you visit a charging station on those rare occasions that you do an overland trip. Otherwise the car starts the day "fueled up " in the garage.

The thing about gas stations is that it does not take long to refuel an ICE car. I can wait for a short period while the car(s) ahead of me fill up, pay and then leave.

With EVs, that same scenario will be a waiting nightmare. Also, people are stupid and won't return to their car once it is fully recharged or has charged enough range to get them home. And as you know, most car owners here don't have a garage where they can charge their EV.

[cawimmer430]

Washed Priscilla and made her super clean... and then a few hours later it started to hail pretty badly. A post-hail inspection showed thankfully no cracked windows or dents in her sheetmetal. 

[CaminoRacer]

If fast chargers become more prominent, they will be placed alongside some entertainment or attractions to occupy you for 20-30 minutes.

[r0tor]

It takes a very long time to charge a car using regular household 120V, 15A.  It takes at least 24 hours to charge a Tesla (48+ for some extended range models) on a household 120V-15A.  A level 2 (240V-50A) home charger will do it in like 8-12 hours.

Not too many people drive 300 miles daily... More like 1/10 of that

[Raza]

The 400Z might scratch that itch unless you need AWD + a back seat.

I can't say whether or not the GT-R aged well as I never liked it. Driving one at the track only confirmed my suspicions. It had the character of a very fast AWD Altima. Playing the numbers game is always a losing proposition because the tide keeps rising. Then what's left?

I wouldn't run from the family sedan. A last gen 340xi or S4 both come in stick and can make the 400HP you need with little $ or risk

The 400Z does look promising, but it's still a long way off.

It's funny, I didn't particularly like the GT-R when it came out, but now I see it and I find it quite nice looking.

[CaminoRacer]

The 400Z does look promising, but it's still a long way off.

It's funny, I didn't particularly like the GT-R when it came out, but now I see it and I find it quite nice looking.

GT-R would be a good daily driver. Put some snow tires on it for the winter and rip around in the snow.

911 Carrera 4 would be the competitor for my lottery winner daily driver.

[MX793]

Not too many people drive 300 miles daily... More like 1/10 of that

And the more full the battery is, the longer it takes per kWh.  It's also not a good idea to routinely plug the battery into a charger when it's still at 75%+.

[12,000 RPM]

The 400Z does look promising, but it's still a long way off.

It's funny, I didn't particularly like the GT-R when it came out, but now I see it and I find it quite nice looking.

Have cars just got that much uglier over the last decade?  I still find the R35 to look like an armored truck "coupe". New Z shouldn't be too far away but it will be a while before dealers aren't gouging for it.

And the more full the battery is, the longer it takes per kWh.  It's also not a good idea to routinely plug the battery into a charger when it's still at 75%+.

Dont know if EVs have this capability but my laptop has the option to cap its charge to 80%. If someone knows they're gonna be doing piddly miles for months on end I'd hope EVs would also give them the option to limit charge to an ideal point. IIRC a lot of EVs keep some reserve capacity for that reason.

[CaminoRacer]

And the more full the battery is, the longer it takes per kWh.  It's also not a good idea to routinely plug the battery into a charger when it's still at 75%+.

In my experience with the Bolt, Level 1 & 2 charge at the same rate even above 80%. I charged at a Chargepoint station last night and it was at 6 kw the whole time. Charged from 60% to 95%

Level 3 drops off a lot above 80% and it's very rarely worth the expense to keep charging at that point

[CaminoRacer]

Dont know if EVs have this capability but my laptop has the option to cap its charge to 80%. If someone knows they're gonna be doing piddly miles for months on end I'd hope EVs would also give them the option to limit charge to an ideal point. IIRC a lot of EVs keep some reserve capacity for that reason.

Yes any good current EV has max charge limit settings

[MX793]

In my experience with the Bolt, Level 1 & 2 charge at the same rate even above 80%. I charged at a Chargepoint station last night and it was at 6 kw the whole time. Charged from 60% to 95%

Level 3 drops off a lot above 80% and it's very rarely worth the expense to keep charging at that point

Isn't level 1 basically a home outlet (115V/15A)?  Max output from a 15A home outlet is 1.8kW (and then you have conversion loss).

[CaminoRacer]

Isn't level 1 basically a home outlet (115V/15A)?  Max output from a 15A home outlet is 1.8kW (and then you have conversion loss).

Yes. I was charging on a typical public Level 2 charger at a mall.

[Galaxy]

It's not just voltage, it's power.  Typical Tesla has a max charge rate of 11.5 kW.  A standard American outlet can deliver 1.8kW, plus there will be conversion losses since batteries need DC.  A NEMA 15-50 can output 12kW, granted there will be some losses when you convert from AC to DC.  Still, you are going to be much closer to the max possible charge rate for a Tesla.

Europlug is higher voltage (250VAC) but much lower amperage at 2.5A.  Much less power than a standard American outlet and will actually take longer to charge an EV.

UK outlets are around 230VAC and can handle up to 13A.  These should charge faster than an American 120V/15A, but not as fast as an American 240V/50A.

Can't speak for Canada (assume it's the same as the US), but US households all have 240VAC 3-phase service into the building which is then broken out at 115VAC single phase at the breaker box to go to the outlets.  Major appliances like clothes dryers and electric ranges usually run on 220-240VAC, so there will usually be a few 240VAC 3-phase outlets.  Many home garages don't have such an outlet, but it's not hard for an electrician to install one since the power source is there.

Not quite it differs from country to country.

Germany has 3 phases of 230V each (comes in as 400V 3-Phase). The standard residential schuko  socket is certified for max 16A. So you would get 3.7kW. A wired single phase solution can take 20A, 4.6kW.  A heavy duty  3 phase solution for residential houses can take up to 32A so 3 · 230 V · 32 A = 22 kW.

Should be the same for Switzerland and Austria. I think parts of France have only 2 phases.

[CaminoRacer]

Is a 3 phase 32 amp outlet common in Germany for some appliances or anything? Like is that a normal enough thing for EVs to plug into, or very specialized?

[Galaxy]

Is a 3 phase 32 amp outlet common in Germany for some appliances or anything? Like is that a normal enough thing for EVs to plug into, or very specialized?

Electric on demand water heaters were all the rage here in the 1980 and 1990s, and they run on 3 phase 32A.  Every run of the mill stove here runs on 3 phase power, generally with 16A, I think they have to be cabled for 32A , just in case someone is stupid.

Likely at minimum you are going to be laying new cabels from the main fuse box since I doubt any electrician would install a a 22kW charging station with cables he did not install.

You can get electric on demand water heaters with up to 27kW. However I have never heard of a residential EV charging station with more then 22kW.

[Laconian]

On demand heaters aren't popular anymore?

[Galaxy]

On demand heaters aren't popular anymore?

Generally tanks now get used. Keep in mind almost all home heating in Europe is water based, so generally one just has a 2nd circuit for hot water.   I did recently install on demand for the bathroom of a guest room. I do not have guests staying overnight that often, so the operating costs are irrelevant, and I did not want to install new hot water pipes across the house. Cold water was already nearby.

For new built houses it is almost impossible now, since they need to use a certain percentage of renewables. The cheapest way to do that for hot water is solar thermal.



There is a liquid running in it that heats up to ~ 260 Celsius (500 Fahrenheit)  which can supply ~15% of hot water (I wonder how much one could do in Arizona?), however that is the antithesis to on demand, it has to be stored.

[12,000 RPM]

On demand heaters aren't popular anymore?

I just got an on demand (gas) DHW heater. Works great, but I would def not want an electric heater (of any kind) in a house with EVs.

Regarding charge capacity concerns... again we have to look at realistic mileages. My wife and I were doing ~110 miles/day between our two vehicles when we were commuting. Typical EVs do like 4mi/kWh, so we would need ~28kWh/day to maintain SoC. If the cars are parked for 10hrs/day that's just 2.8kW which I think is doable between 2 regular degular 15A 120V outlets and def doable with 2 properly wired 240V outlets. Most people drive like 35 miles a day so even with a regular outlet charging is no issue as long as the wiring is good and they have no crazy other loads.

[Laconian]

Your commutes are why I have to endure 110F today. Jeez that is just too long.

[MX793]

I just got an on demand (gas) DHW heater. Works great, but I would def not want an electric heater (of any kind) in a house with EVs.

Regarding charge capacity concerns... again we have to look at realistic mileages. My wife and I were doing ~110 miles/day between our two vehicles when we were commuting. Typical EVs do like 4mi/kWh, so we would need ~28kWh/day to maintain SoC. If the cars are parked for 10hrs/day that's just 2.8kW which I think is doable between 2 regular degular 15A 120V outlets and def doable with 2 properly wired 240V outlets. Most people drive like 35 miles a day so even with a regular outlet charging is no issue as long as the wiring is good and they have no crazy other loads.

Regular 115 outlet can't output more than 1.8kW.

[CaminoRacer]

Regular 115 outlet can't output more than 1.8kW.

15A circuit should only be run at 12A max for long periods, so that's 1.44kw. And that's per circuit, not per outlet. Most if not all garages have all the outlets on 1 circuit.

A two EV household would probably be best served by having the normal 120V 15A garage circuit plus a separate 220V circuit. Unless both cars are used for long commutes, it'd be plenty of charging capability.

[GoCougs]

Regular 115 outlet can't output more than 1.8kW.

Sure - 20 amp residential 115/120 VAC circuits  are common, and provided the outlet and adjoining wiring is so rated, well, there we go (~2.3 kW).

[MX793]

Sure - 20 amp residential 115/120 VAC circuits  are common, and provided the outlet and adjoining wiring is so rated, well, there we go (~2.3 kW).

NEMA 5-20R, while not rare, aren't the standard household 115 outlet.

[CaminoRacer]

My Bolt's included charger doesn't care if your outlet is 20A, the only charge options are 8A or 12A.

[MX793]

My Bolt's included charger doesn't care if your outlet is 20A, the only charge options are 8A or 12A.

Clearly sized to the most common household outlet.  Cables/plugs actually intended for 20A service have one of the blades turned sideways so they only fit in a 5-20R and not a 5-15R.

[FoMoJo]

Clearly sized to the most common household outlet.  Cables/plugs actually intended for 20A service have one of the blades turned sideways so they only fit in a 5-20R and not a 5-15R.

Perhaps you could unplug your kitchen stove overnight and use that outlet, with appropriate extension cord, for charging.

[MX793]

Perhaps you could unplug your kitchen stove overnight and use that outlet, with appropriate extension cord, for charging.

Provided you don't have a gas stove, that could work.

[FoMoJo]

Provided you don't have a gas stove, that could work.

Of course.