Car Chat

[FoMoJo]

Hydrogen powered I/C engines...Yamaha And Kawasaki Join Forces To Build Hydrogen Engines


Could carbon-neutral fuels just be the internal combustion engine's saving grace?
With electric motorcycles popping up left and right, and from a multitude of manufacturers both big and small, has the motorcycle industry all but resigned itself to the eventual demise of the internal combustion engine. Well, simply put, the answer is no. We've talked about how several companies such as Ducati and Porsche are investing heavily in the research of alternative fuels with bio-renewable components, also known as biofuels.

Yamaha And Kawasaki Join Forces To Build Hydrogen Engines© RideApart.com Yamaha And Kawasaki Join Forces To Build Hydrogen Engines
On top of that, a middleground between the outright electrification of two-wheelers seems to be hybridization—something we're seeing in small scooters in the Asian market. There's also hydrogen power, something that Kawasaki has been working on for a while now. Now, in an interesting turn of events, another renowned Japanese manufacturer is joining forces with Kawasaki. Yamaha has taken a seat at the table alongside Team Green. The two companies will be working together to develop new hydrogen engines for use in future motorcycle models.

Kawasaki has long seen hydrogen as an alternative fuel for its vehicles. It currently has technology that demonstrates the feasibility of hydrogen made from Australian brown coal in internal-combustion engines. Additionally, Kawasaki Heavy Industries is also the proprietor of the world's first liquefied hydrogen carrier, called 'The Suiso Frontier.' Apart from motorcycles, Kawasaki also seeks to manufacture hydrogen powered-engines for heavy-duty vehicles and equipment such as land and sea craft, as well as a hydrogen-powered turbine generator.

[cawimmer430]

Didn't Engineering Explained tell us that creating an ICE which burns hydrogen is not that simple?

To me eFuels are the solution to guarantee the mobility for millions of motorists and their ICE cars. The ICE is not the problem - it's the fossil fuel-derived gasoline/Diesel which they burn.

I actually just returned from a ride through town with Birgit and her 2018 BMW i3S. The range in that thing drops like a rock when it's cold outside. We're planning a trip to a town about 120 km away on Saturday and I offered to ride with her and I'd be willing to endure 45 minute "quick charging" times with her. She said even on a full charge (range 225 km) with heating and some spirited driving those 120 km distance might barely be reached. Plus if it's really cold charging will take longer.

If Saturday turns out to be really cold we'll just take my ICE car.

[r0tor]

https://jalopnik.com/toyota-wants-to-make-its-cars-last-longer-by-refurbishi-1848338977#replies

I love this idea.  Of something existed for a reasonable price for my RX8 I would be all in

[veeman]

https://jalopnik.com/toyota-wants-to-make-its-cars-last-longer-by-refurbishi-1848338977#replies

I love this idea.  Of something existed for a reasonable price for my RX8 I would be all in

It is a great idea.  The article mentioned they would potentially refurbish a car twice before recycling it.  Each time, let's say in a lease, the car would go out for 3 years.  So on the second refurbishment, the car would be 6 years old but probably with new hoses, belts, battery, brakes, tires, lights, and maybe I'm guessing seating surface fabric or leatherette.  But instead of leasing a 30 thousand dollar car, you would be leasing a 20 thousand dollar car.   My guess that would knock off about $150-200 off the monthly lease price.   

[Soup DeVille]

It looks like its for change of owners. I wonder if they'd do the service and then return the same vehicle to the previous owner.

[Laconian]

Gran Turismo did it first

[CaminoRacer]

He said automakers need to think beyond the usual two or three year life cycles that are popular. The plan is to extend those cycles to "at least 10 years." Toyota will take vehicles back to the factory after their first use cycle — which is usually when they are returned from a lease. From there, Toyota will refurbish the car "to the best standard" in order to make sure the second owner has as new a car as possible.

That timeline is way too short! 2-3 year leased vehicles with <36k miles are considered practically brand new still. The refurbishment should probably be after like 6-7 years or 100k miles. Warranties and car loans frequently last that long these days.

[Laconian]

Well, it's much easier to have parts on hand for relatively new late model cars.

Isn't this what "CPO" is supposed to do?

[veeman]

That timeline is way too short! 2-3 year leased vehicles with <36k miles are considered practically brand new still. The refurbishment should probably be after like 6-7 years or 100k miles. Warranties and car loans frequently last that long these days.

3 years out, new owner is looking at new tires and brakes over the next three years.  Possibly battery as well.  I know that's not that big a deal but not having to deal with any of that is definitely worth something to a lot of people.  From my experience, a rental car from a major rental company is rarely kept longer than 3 years for probably these same reasons.  A 3 year old car needs some upkeep besides oil and filter changes.   

[veeman]

Well, it's much easier to have parts on hand for relatively new late model cars.

Isn't this what "CPO" is supposed to do?

CPO is just checking to make sure everything is in proper working order.  In this case, as I understand it, the car actually goes to the factory and gets refurbished which to me means new tires, new brakes, new battery, etc.  Otherwise, I don't think of it as being refurbished. 

[CaminoRacer]

Well, it's much easier to have parts on hand for relatively new late model cars.

Isn't this what "CPO" is supposed to do?

Yeah, it's already part of the CPO program, or just general maintenance. That's why I said it should be a longer time before refurbishment. To me, refurbishment would mean things like replacing worn out interior bits (worn leather on the shifter or steering wheel, worn paint on any buttons, saggy headliner, etc), headlight restoration or lens replacement, spring/shock replacement, suspension bushing replacement, paint detail/restoration, etc. Stuff that's not already included on the maintenance schedule.

[Laconian]

It'd be difficult to do that cost effectively without massive automation, and it's really hard to automate a process when your inputs are wildly inconsistent.

[CaminoRacer]

It'd be difficult to do that cost effectively without massive automation, and it's really hard to automate a process when your inputs are wildly inconsistent.

I agree. It's possible to do it for collector type cars. Mazda could do it for RX cars, like rotor mentioned. But it would be a high cost, higher than regular consumers would be willing to pay for a regular car.

[Soup DeVille]

It'd be difficult to do that cost effectively without massive automation, and it's really hard to automate a process when your inputs are wildly inconsistent.

It could however be done much more efficiently than at a custom shop or general garage; especially if the program has access to factory parts without going through the dealer and can streamline the process. Yes, much pf the work would have to be done by hand still, but I think it has promise.

I do agree that a longer cycle might be better.

[veeman]

I agree. It's possible to do it for collector type cars. Mazda could do it for RX cars, like rotor mentioned. But it would be a high cost, higher than regular consumers would be willing to pay for a regular car.

If Toyota leases a mainstreamer car worth 30 thousand new, what's their profit?  Now how much would the profit be if they took that same car, 3 years 36 thousand miles later, spent the money to refurbish it including parts and labor, and lease it again (with a rate equivalent to a new 25 thousand dollar car)?  Then wash, rinse, repeat 3 years later with a rate equivalent to a new 20 thousand dollar car?   

I'm thinking they would make more money leasing it the second time around and even more money leasing it the third time around...  I don't know though. 

[veeman]

The only reason someone would do this is to avoid buying new tires and getting brakes done which generally don't last much longer than 3 or 4 years in a car driven regularly.  If someone pays the extra coin to get a refurbished car, but then 6 months later has to replace the brakes or tires, that someone is going to be really pissed off.  This model won't work if the refurbishment period is longer than that.  Might as well just buy a certified car and pay significantly less money.

[Soup DeVille]

If Toyota leases a mainstreamer car worth 30 thousand new, what's their profit?  Now how much would the profit be if they took that same car, 3 years 36 thousand miles later, spent the money to refurbish it including parts and labor, and lease it again (with a rate equivalent to a new 25 thousand dollar car)?  Then wash, rinse, repeat 3 years later with a rate equivalent to a new 20 thousand dollar car?   

I'm thinking they would make more money leasing it the second time around and even more money leasing it the third time around...  I don't know though. 

I'm sure Toyota has run the numbers on this; but knowing Toyota, it may be more about maintaining their brand reputation than profit.

It may also be a way of keeping their ICE vehicle business going in case new ICE vehicle production becomes banned or regulated out of viability.

[Laconian]

I like it from an environmental POV. Imagine if car makers were required to support initiatives like this. Luxury car manufacturers might get their heads out of their asses and stop building their executive cars with the durability of Faberge eggs.

[Soup DeVille]

I like it from an environmental POV. Imagine if car makers were required to support initiatives like this. Luxury car manufacturers might get their heads out of their asses and stop building their executive cars with the durability of Faberge eggs.

I don't think that will happen.

The only reason people buy high end luxury cars is to impress people (generally people not worth impressing, but that's a whole 'nother story). Nobody is impressed by a factory rebuilt car.
Its also why those cars depreciate like warm sushi.

Nobody parks last year's Bentley up front at the valet line.

[GoCougs]

https://jalopnik.com/toyota-wants-to-make-its-cars-last-longer-by-refurbishi-1848338977#replies

I love this idea.  Of something existed for a reasonable price for my RX8 I would be all in

"At least 10 years?"

A good car, especially Toyotas, will last way more than 10 years and still look good and work well (the average age of a car on the road in the USA is 12 years) if owners keep up with maintenance.

Note this is UK only and there looks to be cultural quirk there about short ownership cycles. South Korea has a quirk too whereby older (3+ years) and used cars are notably frowned upon from a cultural POV.

[r0tor]

That timeline is way too short! 2-3 year leased vehicles with <36k miles are considered practically brand new still. The refurbishment should probably be after like 6-7 years or 100k miles. Warranties and car loans frequently last that long these days.

I agree.  My Alfa still looks and feels new except for some paint chips after 3 years.  The real benefit of this would be more like 6-8 years when things start showing wear.

If I could drop my 18 year old Mazda off and get interior touch points replaced, suspension components replaced, new paint, and some other minor details repaced I would be willing to write a fairly decent sized check

[veeman]

IMHO this would never work for something other than a 3 year "refurbishment" period with a max of 2 such cycles (max age of car at time of last refurbishment being about 6 years).

This is not geared towards people who work on their own cars, people trying to save the most coin, or hell even people who take their cars to independent mechanics.  This is meant for someone who wants to fill up gas and can only stand to take their car for a cheap oil and filter change or have their significant other or Dad do it for them. 

When you lease a car for 3 years/36 thousand miles, you expect to have to do nothing with the car to maintain it except fill gas and twice a year oil/filter change.  That's it.  Nothing else.  Nothing.  In 3 years you turn it in and lease another brand new car.  And again for 3 years you expect to have to do nothing to maintain the car except twice a year oil and filter changes.  Heck some luxury car makes are including "free" oil changes or pushing it as a service contract as part of the lease because the owners were not getting the $100 dollar service done; because they couldn't be bothered and/or because they didn't want to spend that extra $100. 

The point of this is to get that new car lease experience of absolutely zero maintenance other than twice yearly oil changes.  You cannot push this out to 5 years because the car will need some upkeep besides twice yearly oil change.  The car will need new tires, a brake job, and likely a battery.  Often, a few other  things as well which very rarely occur at < 3 years/36 thousand miles but not infrequently occur between 3 and 6 years, < 72 thousand miles.  The point of factory refurbishment (as opposed to just a certified car), is all of these things have not just been inspected but they have been replaced.  New tires, new brakes, new battery, etc.  So the new owner is going to expect and will very likely get that new car lease experience of absolutely zero maintenance, other than twice yearly oil change, only at a cheaper price point.  Once a car is > 9 years old and > 108 thousand miles (end of second refurbishment period)... no matter what you do, the car will most likely not be able to function as a zero maintenance car (except oil changes) even if it has been refurbished.  It's just too old.  The metal and plastic itself is too fatigued.  Things will occur especially in areas where they salt the roads in the winter but even in warm dry inland areas.  Refurbishment in this case is not replacing the engine, transmission, exhaust, etc.  Too expensive, too time consuming, too much diagnostics, too prone to error and failure.  Plus that old a car with that many miles is just not going to be able to be passed off as almost new.  At least not in a cost effective manner.

[AutobahnSHO]

If you had a big enough regional shop, you could churn cars out very very quickly and efficiently.

Have a headlight polisher going car to car while someone is replacing seats (old ones go to a recover shop). Then motor gets the t-belt etc... service while someone else replaces brakes...

[AutobahnSHO]

Oh and switch out the stereo for an updated unit (if applicable).

The way the market is now, people are selling $25k cars 3 years later for $20k...

[Soup DeVille]

People are paying 150-300,000 dollars for "renewed" Land Rovers, Power Wagons, and Wagoneers through firms like Himalayan, Helderberg Defenders, Paragon, and Icon.

That's clearly above the market that this Toyota program is aiming for, and at lower numbers- but I'm willing to bet there's a big space in that market  between the two extremes. 

[RomanChariot]

I have a 2011 Honda Pilot and a couple of weeks ago it started displaying the wrong time on the radio clock. The clock gets its time from a satellite but there is a setting in the navigation system to manually correct the clock. Unfortunately that wouldn't work. I called the Honda dealer and the service manager said the problem was affecting Honda models up to 2014. Apparently it has to do with the Y2K 2 digit year issue and the radio systems were only programmed to go up to the year 2021. In 2022 they reset to 2002 and the clock no longer works right. Honda is hoping to have a fix out by August. It must have been hard to update their radios in under 15 years.

[Soup DeVille]

I have a 2011 Honda Pilot and a couple of weeks ago it started displaying the wrong time on the radio clock. The clock gets its time from a satellite but there is a setting in the navigation system to manually correct the clock. Unfortunately that wouldn't work. I called the Honda dealer and the service manager said the problem was affecting Honda models up to 2014. Apparently it has to do with the Y2K 2 digit year issue and the radio systems were only programmed to go up to the year 2021. In 2022 they reset to 2002 and the clock no longer works right. Honda is hoping to have a fix out by August. It must have been hard to update their radios in under 15 years.

This is really weird;

Because I had an '04 Pilot for years. I put 180,000 miles on it. The clock was set manually.

[CaminoRacer]

I have a 2011 Honda Pilot and a couple of weeks ago it started displaying the wrong time on the radio clock. The clock gets its time from a satellite but there is a setting in the navigation system to manually correct the clock. Unfortunately that wouldn't work. I called the Honda dealer and the service manager said the problem was affecting Honda models up to 2014. Apparently it has to do with the Y2K 2 digit year issue and the radio systems were only programmed to go up to the year 2021. In 2022 they reset to 2002 and the clock no longer works right. Honda is hoping to have a fix out by August. It must have been hard to update their radios in under 15 years.

I heard that was going to happen to a couple of cars. Weird that the clock can't be set manually. Don't care if the year is wrong I would just want to set the clock

[cawimmer430]

The Ultimate J-Car Guide. You're welcome. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

The Ultimate J-Car Guide. You're welcome. 

Thank you. I've been waiting for this.