alignment vs. rotation vs. tire wear?

[Rupert]

Has the car been twitchy lately?

[Byteme]

What is toe in then?? I thought camber was how far the tire tilted towards or away from the car on the vertical plane??

I'll have these guys do the tires and keep an eye on it- and find another shop.......

Picture yourself sitting in front of the car staring at the tires using your x-ray vision to look through the sheet metal to see the tires..  They are standing more or less vertrically, but they each either lean in or out at the top in relation to the centerline of the car.  if they lean in at the top you have negative camber; if they lean out that's positive camber.

extreme negative camber



Now stand on the hood and use your x-ray vision to look down on each tire.  If the front of the tires are closer to the centerline of the car than the rears, you have toe in.  If the rears are closer you have toe out.



A good explanation of front end alignment terms:

http://en.intraxracing.nl/techniek/camber,-caster,-toe-intoe-out/

[AutobahnSHO]

Then to me just seems they messed up the toe.   Twice.

[AutobahnSHO]

Has the car been twitchy lately?

No. I ran these tires for a half a year without issues, before these guys messed with them.

[r0tor]

I would say since both wheels are wearing horrifically, you have a massive toe out issue.

A camber issue or bent frame would probably not effect both sides equally.

[AutobahnSHO]

So they're saying now the alignment is good but it was 1degree off camber both sides, and like .4degree toe wrong on each side.

They put two new tires on the front, cheap "Primewell" hard-rubber all weathers, they added the camber-adjustable bolts front, $200 total between the last time I took it in (Labor Day, $50) and this time for 4 tires + balance alignment etc...

[MrH]

You don't need camber bolts on a stock setup like that.  Don't trust that place.

[AutobahnSHO]

yeah, not going back.....

Why would they show the camber is 1deg off?? They don't know how to run an alignment rack?????

[MrH]

Post the printout. We have no idea what they're talking about until you post the numbers.

[Byteme]

So they're saying now the alignment is good but it was 1degree off camber both sides, and like .4degree toe wrong on each side.

They put two new tires on the front, cheap "Primewell" hard-rubber all weathers, they added the camber-adjustable bolts front, $200 total between the last time I took it in (Labor Day, $50) and this time for 4 tires + balance alignment etc...

Alignment can't be good and off at the same time.   It's either on spec or it's not.

[S204STi]

they were saying that the camber is not adjustable from the factory, some cars need the kit.

Seems the tie rod ends on my car wouldn't adjust camber- they would only adjust the direction horizontally the tires are pointing.

Front or rear? Is this the Subaru you had? Because it should already have front camber adjusters.

[S204STi]

Alignment can't be good and off at the same time.   It's either on spec or it's not.

There's a "green" alignment where all the readings are within the specified range, and there's a dead-on alignment. I think that's where they're quibbling. I'd go somewhere else.

[S204STi]

Post the printout. We have no idea what they're talking about until you post the numbers.

Also this.

Again assuming a Subaru, toe should be 0 degrees front and rear. Camber should be around .5 degrees negative front, and about 1.2 negative rear.

Based on what I saw in your tires, Will, you have one or both axles toed out. Camber won't cause that sort of wear. I'd still set it to spec if possible anyway, but toe is the main concern. After they finish, see if anyone in your area does free alignment checks. A lot of shops here are doing it to get people in the door. In this case, it would be to double check their settings afterward.

[Byteme]

There's a "green" alignment where all the readings are within the specified range, and there's a dead-on alignment. I think that's where they're quibbling. I'd go somewhere else.

Right, but without knowing the make, model and year of the vehicle and the actual measurements we have no way to know what "1 degree off" really means.   1 degree but with the acceptable range?  1 degree outside the specs.

[S204STi]

Right, but without knowing the make, model and year of the vehicle and the actual measurements we have no way to know what "1 degree off" really means.   1 degree but with the acceptable range?  1 degree outside the specs.

Camber being out of spec just 1 degree is pretty significant for pretty much any car. (Sorry, you probably don't know me before this, but I was an ASE master tech, and my last year and a half consisted of literally hundreds of wheel alignments. I know the topic fairly well).

[Byteme]

Camber being out of spec just 1 degree is pretty significant for pretty much any car. (Sorry, you probably don't know me before this, but I was an ASE master tech, and my last year and a half consisted of literally hundreds of wheel alignments. I know the topic fairly well).

No worries, you haven't said anything I can disagree with.    I understand the theory of alignment.  I think we all agree the actual measurements from the shop would be most helpful. 

I've never had much luck with chain shops, like Firestone, NTB, Pepboys, etc.

[S204STi]

No worries, you haven't said anything I can disagree with.    I understand the theory of alignment.  I think we all agree the actual measurements from the shop would be most helpful. 

I've never had much luck with chain shops, like Firestone, NTB, Pepboys, etc.

Cool, cool.

I tend to look for recommendations from high end shops. Like, here I went to the local Porsche shop because they also club race, and require specific settings for that. So I asked them, and they gave me a good review for a shop. It turns out to be a chain. A lot of it depends on the tech. Totally agree, need printout to decipher what the fuck Will's problem actually is.

[MrH]

Camber being out of spec just 1 degree is pretty significant for pretty much any car. (Sorry, you probably don't know me before this, but I was an ASE master tech, and my last year and a half consisted of literally hundreds of wheel alignments. I know the topic fairly well).

Psssh. I'm running nearly 3 degrees in the front of the brz.

[S204STi]

Psssh. I'm running nearly 3 degrees in the front of the brz.

Nice, I'm jelly. With whiteline strut top mounts I can get maybe -2 degrees front.

Currently set to -1.5 all around though.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I'm running zero degrees up front. It gives me better traction off the line.

[MrH]

Nice, I'm jelly. With whiteline strut top mounts I can get maybe -2 degrees front.

Currently set to -1.5 all around though.

I'm running 3 in the front (coilovers + camber bolts). The rear needs some work though. Got almost half a degree difference side to side. The subframe tolerance stack up during production is garbage. I need some whiteline centering bushings. Also, I need some adjustable rear control arms. A degree less in the rear, so I get a lot of oversteer.

The front grips like you wouldn't believe though.

[Rupert]

Camber being out of spec just 1 degree is pretty significant for pretty much any car. (Sorry, you probably don't know me before this, but I was an ASE master tech, and my last year and a half consisted of literally hundreds of wheel alignments. I know the topic fairly well).

That's MiataJohn/ETypeJohn.

[S204STi]

That's MiataJohn/ETypeJohn.

Oh, not shit. Thanks.

Sorry John!

Been gone a while...

[S204STi]

I'm running 3 in the front (coilovers + camber bolts). The rear needs some work though. Got almost half a degree difference side to side. The subframe tolerance stack up during production is garbage. I need some whiteline centering bushings. Also, I need some adjustable rear control arms. A degree less in the rear, so I get a lot of oversteer.

The front grips like you wouldn't believe though.

That's a crazy discrepancy side to size. Kind of surprising. Thank Christ for the aftermarket, lol.

Also, jelly of your handling. I still understeer despite Whiteline ALK, top mounts, -1.5 camber, etc. Not as bad though. Been fiddling with sway bars, still not convinced of common WRX logic which is that somehow more front bar than rear should yield less understeer. I  had a 22mm Whiteline bar in front, (with same dimensions rear) went back to a 20mm stocker for the winter with the rear 22 still in, to see how tail-happy it gets. Snow is nice in that it's sort of like a low-speed skidpad for suspension tuning purposes.

[S204STi]

I might need coilovers to achieve true balance, but for now that's off the table. Need to fix some body damage first.

[MrH]

I might need coilovers to achieve true balance, but for now that's off the table. Need to fix some body damage first.

If you need a discount, let me know.

[S204STi]

If you need a discount, let me know.

Totally! Still at Bilstein I guess?

[Byteme]

Oh, not shit. Thanks.

Sorry John!

Been gone a while...

No sweat.   

[AltinD]

So what about this?



AWD car with normally 90% of the power goes to the front axle, yet the tire consumption happen to the rear ones. It started doing this when I was on the third set of tires (Continental SportContact5 235/40 R 18).

I thought an alignment would solve the problem so I just put the front ones at the back and new ones at the front, and every time the same thing: The tires obliterates themselves once they move at the back. I'm on the 3rd set of of two tires change (rear tires inner side tear). This time I decided to just put the new ones at the back, knowing that they will be consumed faster.

The technician this time said that the camber cannot be adjusted in this car, I have no idea how that can be possible. A previous alignment from the VW service center made no difference or change in tire consumption patterns.     

[AutobahnSHO]

Are the rear tires wearing evenly? or on one side more than the other?

And I'm assuming they are inflated correctly.