alignment vs. rotation vs. tire wear?

[AutobahnSHO]

May 2013 I bought 4 new cheaper tires plus lifetime alignment from Firestone.
November I changed the steering rack so I rotated the tires and got an alignment at Firestone in Augusta, GA.
Didn't rotate the tires besides that. Put 30k mikes on since I bought the tires.

Thursday I went to look under and rotate the tires for a 500 mile trip.
The two front tires were worn to wire and strings on the inside tread, but the rest of the tires were fine. Rears were worn but fine.

Took it back to firestone, they said I didn't rotate them every 5k miles and wanted to give me $5 off each tire but my wife got feisty so we paid $50 for everything instead of $150.

[AutobahnSHO]

About an inch was shredded on both front tires, the rest of the tread was good.

[12,000 RPM]

We need pictures of the shredded tires and your alignment report.

I am pretty sure my alignment is out of whack... 350Zs have alignment issues that cause cupping and I have some kind of resonance going. I thought it was the brakes but I just fixed those and it's still there.

[MX793]

The insides of the front tires were worn?  Sounds like you've either got a ton of negative camber or you're running significantly toe-out (or some combination).

Generally speaking, you rotate (front to rear, and ideally criss-cross if your tires allow for it) to equalize wear on all 4 tires so they all wear out at roughly the same time.  If you don't rotate, you'll generally find that one axle wears faster than the other (typically the fronts, especially on a FWD car) and you'll either have to replace one pair sooner than the others, or if you insist on replacing all 4 at once, you'll be tossing a pair of tires that still have some life in them before their time.

Alignment ensures that wear on each individual tire is more or less even across the tread.  If you're seeing grossly uneven wear across the tread on any given tire (much more wear on the inside or outside), that generally means some kind of alignment problem.  And by "grossly", I mean 2/32s or more variation from where the tread is most worn and where it is least worn.  Road crown and the fact that some cars have some amount of negative camber and toe-in means that you're apt to see some slight amount of unevenness across the tread.  If you're to the cords on the inside of the tread and the outside still has 4-5/32s left, you have a major alignment issue. 

Tire pressure can also result in uneven wear, but is typically symmetrical about the center line of the tire (over-inflated = center of the tread wears faster than the sides; under-inflated = sides wear faster than the center).  Cupping, or an alternating wear pattern, generally means you have a balance issue (or a bent axle).

[MrH]

Sounds like you had some serious toe out on the front. Post your alignment numbers.

[Soup DeVille]

Sounds like the new wife is doing you some good.

[S204STi]

Sounds like the new wife is doing you some good.

This

Also, be advised that recommended alignment figures don't completely eliminate wear. The spec is often a balance between OEM desired handling characteristics and desired wear. My car always wears the inner shoulders more despite being frequently checked by yours truly. If someone offers lifetime rotation, take full advantage of it by rotating every oil change (~5k miles) and you'll be fine.

[AutobahnSHO]

Waiting at Firestone. Went to change oil and there is steel poking out of rubber on the front tires... Inside inch again. It's been a month, they were evenly worn when I rotated them from the back....

[AutobahnSHO]

So they said that the toe is like 1% off, I need a camber bolt kit to be able to adjust that. I'm like, "Why didn't you guys notice that last time? It was Aug28!!!!"

They said the kit is $140 installed, they'll take care of the tires.

So these tires were on the rear, but I rotated them to the front. They looked evenly worn but still had lots of tread on them. The (new) back tires show zero wear- I've driven about 2000 miles since Aug28 (trip to Maryland and back, driving to work.)

So the tires have about almost 30k miles on them total since Spring 2013. (?!?!?!?!!!!!  Trip to Wyoming and back  was 4k, trips to Maryland and back are about 1k each, I put 1k every month driving to work and back...)

[Soup DeVille]

So they said that the toe is like 1% off, I need a camber bolt kit to be able to adjust that. I'm like, "Why didn't you guys notice that last time? It was Aug28!!!!"

They said the kit is $140 installed, they'll take care of the tires.

So these tires were on the rear, but I rotated them to the front. They looked evenly worn but still had lots of tread on them. The (new) back tires show zero wear- I've driven about 2000 miles since Aug28 (trip to Maryland and back, driving to work.)

So the tires have about almost 30k miles on them total since Spring 2013. (?!?!?!?!!!!!  Trip to Wyoming and back  was 4k, trips to Maryland and back are about 1k each, I put 1k every month driving to work and back...)

Why would you need a camber bolt to adjust toe? Toe is adjusted but the tie rod ends.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Why would you need a camber bolt to adjust toe? Toe is adjusted but the tie rod ends.

Maybe the rear toe? In which case I still wouldn't use crash bolts.

[hotrodalex]

What Soup said - no reason you need new parts to adjust toe. More negative camber would also be silly since it would wear the inside more not less.

[AutobahnSHO]

they were saying that the camber is not adjustable from the factory, some cars need the kit.

Seems the tie rod ends on my car wouldn't adjust camber- they would only adjust the direction horizontally the tires are pointing.

[MX793]

they were saying that the camber is not adjustable from the factory, some cars need the kit.

Seems the tie rod ends on my car wouldn't adjust camber- they would only adjust the direction horizontally the tires are pointing.

Camber may not be adjustable from the factory, but toe is not camber.  Very different things.  Every car has adjustable toe.

I'm not sure you have a camber issue.  Wearing a tire even with half its tread to the cords in 2000 miles says something is scrubbing, which to me speaks of a toe issue.  Camber doesn't cause scrubbing that would wear a tire down that quickly.  And if the camber was so extreme that it was wearing the tire like that, you'd visibly notice that the tires were leaning inward.  If they're telling you your toe is good, I'd take it to another shop.  That is not remotely normal wear, and if your old tires didn't look like that before installing these last fall, something has significantly changed on your vehicle.  Either they botched your alignment last time it was done, or something on your car is bent (hit any big potholes lately?).

[Eye of the Tiger]

Do you have your alignment printout?

[MrH]

Do you have your alignment printout?

+1

The story isn't making sense. You're using toe and camber interchangeably. Post the alignment printout and we can help a lot more.

[Rupert]

Yeah, take it to another shop.

[Byteme]

Yeah, take it to another shop.

Find an independent shop that specializes in front end work.  In my experience tire stores that sell alignments aren't that good.  YMMV, however


Edit:


You still near Augusta? 

Try someplace like Johnston's Frame and Alignment, 1249 Ellis Street, Augusta, GA Phone: (706) 722-8779

Email: johnstonsframe@yahoo.comf

[Rupert]

I don't actually know of anywhere in Boise that does alignments that's not a tire shop.

[Byteme]

I don't actually know of anywhere in Boise that does alignments that's not a tire shop.

Garden City is about 4 miles up the road.  Try Ammerman's Exhaust.   http://www.ammermansexhaust.com/boise-suspension-steering-shocks

I'd go to the dealer before I went to a Firestone store. 

[Soup DeVille]

Garden City is about 4 miles up the road.  Try Ammerman's Exhaust.   http://www.ammermansexhaust.com/boise-suspension-steering-shocks

I'd go to the dealer before I went to a Firestone store. 

LOL Firestone.

Those were the guys that tried to sell me 60,000 mile all weather tires for the S2000. 

[Rupert]

Garden City is about 4 miles up the road.  Try Ammerman's Exhaust.   http://www.ammermansexhaust.com/boise-suspension-steering-shocks

I'd go to the dealer before I went to a Firestone store. 

Nice Google-fu. Maybe I didn't look hard enough. I think I just searched for "performance alignment".

[Byteme]

Nice Google-fu. Maybe I didn't look hard enough. I think I just searched for "performance alignment".

I simply googled "boise alignment shops".   

I'm often amazed at the amount of useful info one can find on the internet if one is willing to look for it. 

[Rupert]

IIRC, I was looking specifically for a place that was familiar with Porsche. I've been using Big-O Tires, which is allegedly the place the local PCA club uses, but I've never really liked the job they do-- always get the feeling they didn't put in the time required.

[hotrodalex]

I always just have to triple check that they're using the specs I want and not stock specs.

[MX793]

After the last experience I had with a dedicated tire shop, I wouldn't trust them to do much of anything.  Failed to balance the wheels the first time (even though I paid for that with the tire install).  Used shitty, steel clip-on weights on my aluminum wheels when I brought it back so they could do the job right, which in turn ruined my wheels due to galvanic corrosion in the salt of winter.  And both times, when I double-checked the torque on the lug nuts after getting home I found at least one lug on each wheel was finger tight and one lug on each wheel that was so tight I needed a big breaker bar to crack them loose.

[Rupert]

I always just have to triple check that they're using the specs I want and not stock specs.

These guys don't seem to be able to match any specs...

[Byteme]

After the last experience I had with a dedicated tire shop, I wouldn't trust them to do much of anything.  Failed to balance the wheels the first time (even though I paid for that with the tire install).  Used shitty, steel clip-on weights on my aluminum wheels when I brought it back so they could do the job right, which in turn ruined my wheels due to galvanic corrosion in the salt of winter.  And both times, when I double-checked the torque on the lug nuts after getting home I found at least one lug on each wheel was finger tight and one lug on each wheel that was so tight I needed a big breaker bar to crack them loose.

I always retorque the lug nuts after anyone other than myself fools with a wheel.

[AutobahnSHO]

What is toe in then?? I thought camber was how far the tire tilted towards or away from the car on the vertical plane??

I'll have these guys do the tires and keep an eye on it- and find another shop.......

[MX793]

What is toe in then?? I thought camber was how far the tire tilted towards or away from the car on the vertical plane??

I'll have these guys do the tires and keep an eye on it- and find another shop.......

Camber is the angle the tire makes relative to the road surface.  It's when the tires lean relative to the road.  Toe is when the tires point towards or away from each other when viewed from above.  Toe in is when the tires are "pidgeon toed".  You generally set a car up with a slight bit of toe in for stability.  Too much and you get excessive wear on the outer edge of the tread.  Toe out is the opposite, and wears the inboard tread.