PSA to re-enter North America with DS brand?

[93JC]

We will chew them up and spit them out.

They haven't a hope in hell. Citroen DS3/4/5 would be, in the eyes of most North Americans, overpriced and grossly underpowered.

[CALL_911]

Lol yea this ain't gonna go well

[2o6]

Yeah, their top level engines are base level engines here. And I don't think they make a 6 cylinder engine that isn't old as dirt.




I think some of the more quirkier cactus line and mainstream cars could work here, but the profit margins are most likely far too thin.

[93JC]

Do they even sell six-cylinders anymore? Seems to me they went all-in on four-popper diesels.

[12,000 RPM]

Mmmmm just in time for Europe to figure out diesel particulates are fatal

[93JC]

I went to the French Citroen website, presuming that any and all variations of their products would be available in the home market, and they don't sell any six-cylinders anymore. The French Wikipedia article on the C5 says that the company stopped selling V6s entirely two years ago.

So Citroen's biggest car, the C5, is available with a choice of 2.0 L diesel fours: 150 hp if you row your own gears, 180 hp if you opt for the six-speed automatic. Sorry PSA but 180 hp (max) in a mid-size car ain't gonna fly in North America. No gasoline engine ain't gonna fly.

The DS5 is available with a turbocharged 1.6 L gasser; 165 hp with an automatic, 210 hp with a manual. Seriously, PSA: this shit ain't gonna fly in North America.

[MX793]

I went to the French Citroen website, presuming that any and all variations of their products would be available in the home market, and they don't sell any six-cylinders anymore. The French Wikipedia article on the C5 says that the company stopped selling V6s entirely two years ago.

So Citroen's biggest car, the C5, is available with a choice of 2.0 L diesel fours: 150 hp if you row your own gears, 180 hp if you opt for the six-speed automatic. Sorry PSA but 180 hp (max) in a mid-size car ain't gonna fly in North America. No gasoline engine ain't gonna fly.

The DS5 is available with a turbocharged 1.6 L gasser; 165 hp with an automatic, 210 hp with a manual. Seriously, PSA: this shit ain't gonna fly in North America.

The Mazda6 is only available with a only a 185 hp motor.  I believe the rumored diesel version will have less power.  Seems to be selling reasonably well.  It's not a class volume leader, but it never has been.  If a car is appealing enough in other ways, I'm not sure it needs to have a V6 or V6 equivalent power to sell in large enough volumes to be profitable.  Though a more potent motor does generally broaden appeal.  Lack of a competitive gasoline engine, though, will be a killer in North America.

[2o6]

The Mazda6 is only available with a only a 185 hp motor.  I believe the rumored diesel version will have less power.  Seems to be selling reasonably well.  It's not a class volume leader, but it never has been.  If a car is appealing enough in other ways, I'm not sure it needs to have a V6 or V6 equivalent power to sell in large enough volumes to be profitable.  Though a more potent motor does generally broaden appeal.  Lack of a competitive gasoline engine, though, will be a killer in North America.

Mazda is mainstream, though.


The DS line is supposed to be PSA's Audi/BMW fighter.

[MX793]

Mazda is mainstream, though.


The DS line is supposed to be PSA's Audi/BMW fighter.

Yeah.... that's not gonna fly.

[Madman]

150 to 180 horsepower is underpowered?  Wow, now I know where Wimmer gets his lame-ass jokes from! 

The Citroën DS3 is often pitched as a MINI Cooper rival.  What's under the hood of a 2015 MINI Cooper?  A 1.5 litre three cylinder engine with 134 horsepower.  Step up to a 2015 MINI Cooper S and you get a 2.0 litre four-pot motor with 189 horsepower.  Speed freaks can plonk down their hard-earned on a John Cooper Works with a heady 228 horsepower but those are few and far between.

These modest numbers don't seem to stop MINI from selling a buttload of Coopers over here.

The Citroën DS4 squares up nicely against the Volkswagen Golf.  With the 1.8 TSI engine, the Golf is endowed with 170 horsepower.  More than adequate, if you ask me.  Go for the TDI and you get 150 horsepower and a stump-pulling 236 lb.ft. of torque that will accelerate like you've just been rear-ended by a freight train!  Then there's the GTI, but that's a different kettle of fish altogether.

The fancy-pants Ford Focus Titanium hatchback will give plenty of full-on luxury cars a run for their money.  160 horsepower from the take-it-or-leave-it 2.0 four banger is deemed perfectly acceptable for legions of Focus drivers.  If your willing to settle for an SE trim Focus, you can even get a 123 horsepower 1.0 litre three cylinder.

So why wouldn't a 150-180 horsepower DS-Whatever "not fly" over here, exactly?  It seems to be right in line with their most logical competitors.  Besides, there's nothing at all stopping PSA from cooking up something a little more potent in the engine department to satisfy all those hypothetical horsepower addicts you seem to think will scoff at anything with less forward thrust than an Boeing F-18 Super Hornet.

Waaaaay back in the 1980s, the Peugeot 505 Turbo Wagon was a North America-only special.  It isn't inconceivable for PSA to do something similar today.

[93JC]

The Mazda6 is only available with a only a 185 hp motor.  I believe the rumored diesel version will have less power.  Seems to be selling reasonably well.  It's not a class volume leader, but it never has been.

It has had a bit of a sales uptick since the new generation launched but it's still only about 70% of its peak ten years ago. Toyota sells about as many Camrys in a month as Mazda sells 6s in a year. That's not good.

150 to 180 horsepower is underpowered?  Wow, now I know where Wimmer gets his lame-ass jokes from! 

They have to be competitive on paper, and 180 hp is considerably less than a comparable BMW, Audi, etc.

The Citroën DS3 is often pitched as a MINI Cooper rival.  What's under the hood of a 2015 MINI Cooper?  A 1.5 litre three cylinder engine with 134 horsepower.  Step up to a 2015 MINI Cooper S and you get a 2.0 litre four-pot motor with 189 horsepower.  Speed freaks can plonk down their hard-earned on a John Cooper Works with a heady 228 horsepower but those are few and far between.

These modest numbers don't seem to stop MINI from selling a buttload of Coopers over here.

The DS3 is a subcompact, ergo nobody really gives a shit in the United States. Mini sells about 30,000 Coopers a year in the US; not a 'buttload'. But whatever, the DS3 is not the problem. The DS5 is.

The Citroën DS4 squares up nicely against the Volkswagen Golf.  With the 1.8 TSI engine, the Golf is endowed with 170 horsepower.  More than adequate, if you ask me.

Go for the TDI and you get 150 horsepower and a stump-pulling 236 lb.ft. of torque that will accelerate like you've just been rear-ended by a freight train!  Then there's the GTI, but that's a different kettle of fish altogether.

The fancy-pants Ford Focus Titanium hatchback will give plenty of full-on luxury cars a run for their money.  160 horsepower from the take-it-or-leave-it 2.0 four banger is deemed perfectly acceptable for legions of Focus drivers.  If your willing to settle for an SE trim Focus, you can even get a 123 horsepower 1.0 litre three cylinder.

So why wouldn't a 150-180 horsepower DS-Whatever "not fly" over here, exactly?  It seems to be right in line with their most logical competitors.  Besides, there's nothing at all stopping PSA from cooking up something a little more potent in the engine department to satisfy all those hypothetical horsepower addicts you seem to think will scoff at anything with less forward thrust than an Boeing F-18 Super Hornet.

Waaaaay back in the 1980s, the Peugeot 505 Turbo Wagon was a North America-only special.  It isn't inconceivable for PSA to do something similar today.

The DS5 is an entire size class bigger than any of the compacts you mentioned. It would be competing against the likes of the Audi A4, BMW 3-series and such. 180 hp in that class is a joke, and it would get slaughtered in this market.

[12,000 RPM]

So why wouldn't a 150-180 horsepower DS-Whatever "not fly" over here, exactly?  It seems to be right in line with their most logical competitors.  Besides, there's nothing at all stopping PSA from cooking up something a little more potent in the engine department to satisfy all those hypothetical horsepower addicts you seem to think will scoff at anything with less forward thrust than an Boeing F-18 Super Hornet.

Waaaaay back in the 1980s, the Peugeot 505 Turbo Wagon was a North America-only special.  It isn't inconceivable for PSA to do something similar today.

The fact that the DS whatever is in line with competitors is the problem. It will be no better than said Golf, while having way worse dealer support, unknown reliability and the French stench (whether it is warranted any more or not). DS has zero competitive edge, and only appeals to folks like you who extoll the car on the basis of nothing than its meaningless contrast, but have zero plans to actually buy any of these cars new. Tired old meme. Why should anyone buy a DS over a Golf, Mini or Focus? Hell, even a fully loaded Corolla? Don't let your obsessions with mediocre rare cars color your business anaylsis- the French have no reason to try and re-enter the US market. If the 505 turbo wagon was so great why did Peugeot completely pull out of the US market, and what would be any different this time?

[93JC]

Preeeeeeeeeeeeecisely.

[2o6]

I think French cars have an interesting, designerly attitude that is lacking from many cars in the US market today



But I don't know if that'll be enough to sell cars here.



The DS5 is very cool, but with just 180HP, a 320i will curb stomp it.

[Madman]

The fact that the DS whatever is in line with competitors is the problem. It will be no better than said Golf, while having way worse dealer support, unknown reliability and the French stench (whether it is warranted any more or not). DS has zero competitive edge, and only appeals to folks like you who extoll the car on the basis of nothing than its meaningless contrast, but have zero plans to actually buy any of these cars new. Tired old meme. Why should anyone buy a DS over a Golf, Mini or Focus? Hell, even a fully loaded Corolla? Don't let your obsessions with mediocre rare cars color your business anaylsis- the French have no reason to try and re-enter the US market. If the 505 turbo wagon was so great why did Peugeot completely pull out of the US market, and what would be any different this time?

I never said it was going to be easy for PSA to establish DS as a viable brand over here.  In fact, they'll be embarking on the mother of all uphill battles trying to sell Americans on the idea of buying a French car.  As difficult tasks go, this is right up there with teaching your dog trigonometry.  Then again, everyone said MINI would flop here, too.  Fifteen years later and they're still here.

And there are several very good reasons why Peugeot tanked in the US, first and foremost of which were trying to be a one-model company and selling that same model for twelve years straight with hardly any changes throughout that whole time.  They're unlikely to repeat that mistake with the multi-model DS lineup but there are plenty of other hurdles to overcome.  DS will be starting from nothing.  They'll need to introduce a new and completely unknown brand into an oversaturated market filled with plenty of well-established players,  build a dealer and distribution network entirely from scratch and get the product and pricing right from day one.  In other words, DS will have to do the seemingly impossible.

PSA knows it can't be a player on a global scale without some sort of presence in North America.  There may be easy picking in China right now but even that gravy train won't run forever.  I hope they're able to pull it off.  After all, who doesn't appreciate a plucky underdog story?

[mzziaz]

I'm sure PSA can churn out a 200hp plus four pot turbo for the US market without much effort.

If people will buy it, is another question.

Maybe it is easier to sell niche models with a profit in the US market place now? The return of MINI, FIAT and possibly Alfa Romeo and PSA models seems to indicate that.

[MrH]

They're not particularly good cars though.  Interesting design?  Sure.  But outside of that, what are the redeeming qualities?

[12,000 RPM]

I never said it was going to be easy for PSA to establish DS as a viable brand over here.  In fact, they'll be embarking on the mother of all uphill battles trying to sell Americans on the idea of buying a French car.  As difficult tasks go, this is right up there with teaching your dog trigonometry.  Then again, everyone said MINI would flop here, too.  Fifteen years later and they're still here.

And there are several very good reasons why Peugeot tanked in the US, first and foremost of which were trying to be a one-model company and selling that same model for twelve years straight with hardly any changes throughout that whole time.  They're unlikely to repeat that mistake with the multi-model DS lineup but there are plenty of other hurdles to overcome.  DS will be starting from nothing.  They'll need to introduce a new and completely unknown brand into an oversaturated market filled with plenty of well-established players,  build a dealer and distribution network entirely from scratch and get the product and pricing right from day one.  In other words, DS will have to do the seemingly impossible.

PSA knows it can't be a player on a global scale without some sort of presence in North America.  There may be easy picking in China right now but even that gravy train won't run forever.  I hope they're able to pull it off.  After all, who doesn't appreciate a plucky underdog story?

Who said MINI wouldn't work? Retro cars were crazy hot when they came back.

And PSA knows it can't be a player on a global scale without NA presence.... so they basically know they can't be a player on the global scale.

What exactly will the US market gain by having PSA here?

[giant_mtb]

What does PSA stand for?

[12,000 RPM]

I'm sure PSA can churn out a 200hp plus four pot turbo for the US market without much effort.

If people will buy it, is another question.

Maybe it is easier to sell niche models with a profit in the US market place now? The return of MINI, FIAT and possibly Alfa Romeo and PSA models seems to indicate that.

Fiat is knocking on heavens door

Alfa is offering compelling products

There's just no case for this

[SJ_GTI]

What does PSA stand for?

SA is just their acronym for a corporation. The P is for Peuegot (sp?).

[MX793]

What does PSA stand for?

Public Service Announcement
Pressure Sensitive Adhesive
Peugeot Societe Anonyme

[2o6]

Fiat is knocking on heavens door

Alfa is offering compelling products

There's just no case for this

I don't think Alfa offers anything compelling, honestly.



I think PSA's DS line could work as an alternative to Buick/Acura, but they'd be priced over those two.

[12,000 RPM]

I don't think Alfa offers anything compelling, honestly.



I think PSA's DS line could work as an alternative to Buick/Acura, but they'd be priced over those two.

People shit on Acura all the time. I think Madman has dumped on the ILX extensively, which makes his love affair with PSA that much stranger.

[93JC]

SA is just their acronym for a corporation. The P is for Peuegot (sp?).

Peugeot. And yeah, "S.A." is the French equivalent of a limited liability corporation. Peugeot Société Anonyme = "Peugeot Corporation".

EDIT:

Public Service Announcement
Pressure Sensitive Adhesive
Peugeot Societe Anonyme

[93JC]

People shit on Acura all the time. I think Madman has dumped on the ILX extensively, which makes his love affair with PSA that much stranger.

Yep. People shit on Acura and Buick all the time for being superfluous also-rans in the luxury car market. Volvo too. Saab was in that same market, and we all know what happened there. There's nothing to suggest the same wouldn't happen to Peugeot, Citroen, "DS", or whatever brand PSA decided to bring here.

[280Z Turbo]

What does PSA stand for?

Poop Shit Ass

[Eye of the Tiger]

Poop Shit Ass

[2o6]

Yep. People shit on Acura and Buick all the time for being superfluous also-rans in the luxury car market. Volvo too. Saab was in that same market, and we all know what happened there. There's nothing to suggest the same wouldn't happen to Peugeot, Citroen, "DS", or whatever brand PSA decided to bring here.

Buick sells well, though

[Eye of the Tiger]

Buick sells well, though

Buick's market is slowly growing senile, and dying. Soon, there will be nobody left to buy Buicks.