Ford to invest $5 billion in Lincoln

[GoCougs]

Lincoln was one of Mulally's notable mistakes IMO (dumping Jaguar and Volvo was totally the right thing to do though) - decent enough cars but a rebadge/derivative dumping ground.

[Morris Minor]

Lincolns are Fords in drag.

[Soup DeVille]

Why would they use the same floorpan for a FWD car as a RWD car, which would leave a large central tunnel digging in on legroom and hip room?  Unless by platform they mean components like engine, wiring, suspension, and brakes, leaving out the structure.

The definition of what a platform is is far more flexible than what most people realize. And, with almost all cars having a decent size center console anyways, I doubt that's really too much of a concern.

[CJ]

Lincoln was one of Mulally's notable mistakes IMO (dumping Jaguar and Volvo was totally the right thing to do though) - decent enough cars but a rebadge/derivative dumping ground.

Dumping Jag a Volvo was absolutely the right thing to do.  It's crazy how much they're both flourishing now that Ford isn't sapping them of everything they've got. 

[Mustangfan2003]

Ford needed to dump some brands or else they were going to end up like GM and Chrysler. 

[12,000 RPM]

Volvo would not have survived with Ford

Now they just get to die a slower death

Jag is OK as long as Tata is feeling charitable. But its sales figures are pretty awful too.

[MX793]

Aren't Jaguar's sales the highest they've been in decades, if not ever?

[12,000 RPM]

No, at least not in the US

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10/jaguar-brand-sales-figures-usa-canada.html

And their highest selling model is the F-Type

Im shocked that they were moving 60K cars in the US at any point in their history

[FoMoJo]

Dumping Jag a Volvo was absolutely the right thing to do.  It's crazy how much they're both flourishing now that Ford isn't sapping them of everything they've got. 

Ford put far more into Jaguar than they ever got out.  They'd been dying for years making unreliable crap before Ford rescued them.

[Madman]

No, at least not in the US

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10/jaguar-brand-sales-figures-usa-canada.html

And their highest selling model is the F-Type

Im shocked that they were moving 60K cars in the US at any point in their history

Believe it or not, the X-Type was a huge seller during those years.  In fact, the X-Type is, to date, the single best-selling Jaguar of all time.  Just goes to show how important an entry level model (even a slightly underwhelming one) is to a premium brand's bottom line.  The upcoming XE sedan and C-X17 crossover that will share the XE's platform are certain to be huge sellers.  Remember, this will NOT be a half-hearted attempt like the X-Type was.  Jag will finally be able to take the fight directly to Zee Germans.

Ford put far more into Jaguar than they ever got out.  They'd been dying for years making unreliable crap before Ford rescued them.

Yep, Ford invested the time, money and resources that Jaguar so desperately needed, only to give it all away to Tata who are now poised to reap the benefits.

[Mustangfan2003]

I think Jaguar was starting to turn around before Ford sold them off. It was just a terrible time to be in the car business. 

[12,000 RPM]

Believe it or not, the X-Type was a huge seller during those years.  In fact, the X-Type is, to date, the single best-selling Jaguar of all time.  Just goes to show how important an entry level model (even a slightly underwhelming one) is to a premium brand's bottom line.  The upcoming XE sedan and C-X17 crossover that will share the XE's platform are certain to be huge sellers.  Remember, this will NOT be a half-hearted attempt like the X-Type was.  Jag will finally be able to take the fight directly to Zee Germans.

Entry level model was a big deal back when the X-Type was new. These days all that shit is irrelevant. The whole "fight Zee Germans directly" thing is becoming a running joke- the Germans have a complete and perpetual lockdown of the segments they invented (3 series, E class, S class), and when all else fails can just rely on brand power to remain sales kings. This is why the significantly softer F30 is still the top seller by a wide margin despite giving up the dynamic crown to Lexus and Cadillac. All the non-Germans seem to have set their crosshairs to "BMW in 1998".

The XE is going to bomb, I can promise you that. No amount of alt-brand contrarian fanboyism will change the fact that it just doesn't make a strong business case. People in the 3 series market want established names- the direct relationship between marque age and sales today proves this. Similarly not everyone wants another boring 3 box sedan, which there are honestly just too much of today in the luxury market (and which is part of why CUVs are taking off). Jag's lineup is the most "German focused" it's ever been and sales figures are in the garbage... Caddy is putting silly money on the hoods of ATSs to move them.... the Germans themselves have had to move to niches within niches and tons of CUVs to keep growth going- sales of the 3 class are damn near flat; sales of the E class are up the same amount sales of the S class are down. So people need to let that dream go... the days of "bringing the fight to Zee Germans" being possible or rational ended about 10 yrs ago

[Madman]

Entry level model was a big deal back when the X-Type was new. These days all that shit is irrelevant. The whole "fight Zee Germans directly" thing is becoming a running joke- the Germans have a complete and perpetual lockdown of the segments they invented (3 series, E class, S class), and when all else fails can just rely on brand power to remain sales kings. This is why the significantly softer F30 is still the top seller by a wide margin despite giving up the dynamic crown to Lexus and Cadillac. All the non-Germans seem to have set their crosshairs to "BMW in 1998".

The XE is going to bomb, I can promise you that. No amount of alt-brand contrarian fanboyism will change the fact that it just doesn't make a strong business case. People in the 3 series market want established names- the direct relationship between marque age and sales today proves this. Similarly not everyone wants another boring 3 box sedan, which there are honestly just too much of today in the luxury market (and which is part of why CUVs are taking off). Jag's lineup is the most "German focused" it's ever been and sales figures are in the garbage... Caddy is putting silly money on the hoods of ATSs to move them.... the Germans themselves have had to move to niches within niches and tons of CUVs to keep growth going- sales of the 3 class are damn near flat; sales of the E class are up the same amount sales of the S class are down. So people need to let that dream go... the days of "bringing the fight to Zee Germans" being possible or rational ended about 10 yrs ago

You bring up some valid points.  While I think the XE will do reasonably well (for a Jag), the crossover it will spawn (C-X17 or whatever they're going to call it) will be the real sales leader.  Crossovers are red-hot right now and the prospect of a Jag-branded crossover will entice plenty of shoppers to part with their cash.  Jaguar's biggest problem will be how to build them fast enough.

[12,000 RPM]

I'm just wondering if it will be the right fit. I feel like a Jag Evoque (obv with different styling) would have made more sense. Less $$$ to develop and more in line with customer wants. CUV buyers care even less about RWD and dynamics than sedan buyers, so I feel like a rebadge job would have been a smarter way to leverage. IMO they should have avoided the XE altogether

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Should just flush the money down the toilet and save them from years of work and disappointment.

[Galaxy]

And their highest selling model is the F-Type

Which is the first non Ford Jaguar.

[Tave]

Ford sold Jaguar and Volvo when they were the only profitable brands in the portfolio, in order to protect the core (American) market and business. They really didn't have any choice.

Credit Mulally for making the tough decision when he had to, but I bet Ford execs really wish they could have held onto them.

[Tave]

In a perfectly rational world, any fool could see that killing Mercury and Lincoln and replacing them with Volvo/Jaguar was the wisest course of action, but that would have been a hard pill to swallow for the Ford faithful.

[12,000 RPM]

IDK

Jaguar and Volvo are in dire straits now, despite having state of the art lineups no worse than what they had under Ford's wing

There is an article about how dealers and customers are beginning to become overwhelmed with the amount of choice in the marketplace. I will make a separate thread about that.

But a company like BMW/Lexus pretty much has anything Jag or Volvo can bring to the table and more, while having more brand cachet, better reputations and stronger dealership networks. I mean you look at the XE or S60... what is the value of them to the customer over anything from BMW, or Lexus, or even Acura? S60's position is particularly perilous given how close it is to something like an Accord V6. IDK, Ford unloading both was good but they should have taken some money to develop Lincoln. Even then though by the time they did that IMO it was still too late. Pretty much any luxury brand that wasn't established by the mid 00s is locked out.

[SVT666]

Jaguar is doing great. What are you smoking?

[12,000 RPM]

Doing great compared to wat

In 2002 Jag sold ~60K cars in the US... this year they are on pace to do about 14. Theyve been in the 11-16K range for the last 8 years. The XF and XJ are nice inside, but old as fuck and just not competitive. From the recession Jag rebounded ~45%. BMW & Mercedes were closer to 60%. But in the US BMW & Mercedes are selling about 200-300K cars a year. F-Type can't carry the company.

Naw, business wise Jag is a shell of its former self and needs to get shit in order. Sadly the XE is too little to late.

[hotrodalex]

Why do you hate ever luxury option other than the Germans? What's wrong with trying to compete?

I like Jags and Caddys. Sometimes people buy cars because they like the styling or don't want the same car as everyone else.

[Galaxy]

Doing great compared to wat

In 2002 Jag sold ~60K cars in the US... this year they are on pace to do about 14. Theyve been in the 11-16K range for the last 8 years. The XF and XJ are nice inside, but old as fuck and just not competitive. From the recession Jag rebounded ~45%. BMW & Mercedes were closer to 60%. But in the US BMW & Mercedes are selling about 200-300K cars a year. F-Type can't carry the company.

Naw, business wise Jag is a shell of its former self and needs to get shit in order. Sadly the XE is too little to late.

World wide Jaguar/Land Rover have more then doubled sales 2009-2013.

[12,000 RPM]

Why do you hate ever luxury option other than the Germans? What's wrong with trying to compete?

I like Jags and Caddys. Sometimes people buy cars because they like the styling or don't want the same car as everyone else.

I dont hate them, stop with the strawmen, thats my specialty. I give credit where its due. Caddy is making good cars but they are making the wrong cars. Generally speaking nobody gives a shit about "Brembo brakes" or ring times in the ATS/CTS markets. Jag has the best interior design in the business but thats clearly not enough to sell cars in this market. And the non Germans are at a permanent branding disadvantage, so their cars have to be that much better just to be on equal ground, which they aren't.

Luxury cars these days are pretty boring IMO. The German's hyperniching and over-conservative designs on their bread and butter cars are reflective of desperation and paralysis. And rather than go left and make space for themselves brands like Caddy and Jag want to try and squeeze into the same crowded room. It's bad business and it's painful to watch. Like I said the cars themselves are not very exciting anymore. Very formulaic and reflective of fear. My interest has shifted to the business side of the game.

[SVT666]

I would really love me an XF Supercharged.  I would also love a blue ATS, if it weren't for CUE.  But, I'm just going to have to wait a few more years and then buy a used CTS-V Wagon.

[Raza]

You know, my brother is having a hard time thinking of what to replace his S4 with now, because it feels like the market players haven't really moved forward. 

[CALL_911]

You know, my brother is having a hard time thinking of what to replace his S4 with now, because it feels like the market players haven't really moved forward.

If he's looking for an AWD sport sedan, why does he want to replace the S4?

[Raza]

If he's looking for an AWD sport sedan, why does he want to replace the S4?

My brother likes the shiny and new.  And it's going to be out of warranty soon.  He can afford a new car, so why not?

[12,000 RPM]

Hmm. My first thought is he should mod it. A $500 reflash will put his S4 in RS4 speed territory. New suspension and brakes will work too.

On the other hand... S3? M3?

[SJ_GTI]

You know, my brother is having a hard time thinking of what to replace his S4 with now, because it feels like the market players haven't really moved forward.

I am not necessarily looking to buy anytime soon, but I can see where he is coming from. Unless he is looking to spend a lot more money (RS4/M3), there isn't really anything much better at this point. 330 HP with a 7 speed DSG is still pretty competitive. The current S4 is really just styling updates.