Motor Trend vid: GT-R NISMO vs Z06

[hotrodalex]

Also:

"We checked the data, and lap times and peak speeds did fall off by a few tenths of a second and 1 or 2 mph on each subsequent lap, though these could also be attributed to tire wear and other factors. Although Pobst has consistently complained of reduced engine power when lapping C7 Z06s, the problem does not appear to be especially great (in terms of lap times) and only seems to affect drivers of Pobst's incredibly high skill, suggesting that most customers won't encounter it."

[AutobahnSHO]

"most customers won't encounter it."

They'll do whatever they can to get away with whatever.

Seems genius really- they get the high HP figures for magazines but real world much lower (after the first lap ) which will make the cars last longer.

[MX793]

I didn't see them specify that the automatic car was retuned. It reads as if the automatic was just another test car brought in for comparison.

Both test cars had the revised suspension firmware with the "rough track" mode.  The was the only software/firmware update reported in the article that differed from the original test car.  This update is apparently available to all owners currently.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Thats good to know.

Still, giving the automaker the opportunity to alter, and retest, a car after it lost a comparison will have but one goal. To make the car faster, and win the comparison.

While there maybe a chance they did nothing more than what they claimed, there is a much larger chance that they would make alterations that would result in the best performance possible in an attempt to win. I'm sure just about any automaker would.

[MX793]

Thats good to know.

Still, giving the automaker the opportunity to alter, and retest, a car after it lost a comparison will have but one goal. To make the car faster, and win the comparison.

While there maybe a chance they did nothing more than what they claimed, there is a much larger chance that they would make alterations that would result in the best performance possible in an attempt to win. I'm sure just about any automaker would.

I have mixed feelings.  The rear alignment was out of whack on the original test car, which is a legit issue that will affect lap times.  Part of me thinks they should have tested the exact same car but with the alignment issue fixed.  Pobst seemed to think that the alignment fix accounted for the lion's share of the lap time improvement since the back end was better behaved in the corners and could put power down better coming out of the corners.  A lot of the previous twitchiness was a result of the rear end alignment.

[r0tor]

So was the alignment out of factory specs, or did they just change it to something more suitable for track use?

[r0tor]

You're out of your mind if you think Motor Trend is stupid enough to not notice that the suspension is exactly the same yet it has more power.

A couple of days ago I asked Ridetech's boss about his new Z06. They went out and tested it along with their new C3 'Vette build. Said they did 23 minutes of hot laps and the engine ran at 226 degrees F, oil at 262 F.

Multiple tuners have come out with less conservative ECU tunes, since they don't have to worry about emissions or 100,000 mile warranties. Problem solved. Although chances of GM doing the same tune from the factory are super slim, unfortunately. Not a good sign for future performance cars - emissions and MPG requirements from the government are only going to make it more difficult to provide showroom-floor race cars. The rise of hybrid supercars is further evidence.

So fixing the massive issue means cutting away the control logic designed to help the engine not blow up instead of fixing the immense screw up that is the cooling system.   GM really likes its fanbois....

[MX793]

So was the alignment out of factory specs, or did they just change it to something more suitable for track use?

Out of spec.  It's supposed to have 0 caster on the rears and their car was at +2 degrees.

[SVT666]

GM built an engine that is under engineered since they have to retard ignition to make the engine last the length of the warranty. Everyone defending something like this would be all over Dodge if it was the Viper, or Ford if it was the Mustang, or Ferrari if it was the 458. Why does GM get a pass for screwing up like this?  They claim it's the most track capable Vette yet, but that's a lie just because of this one issue...never mind the straightaway speed killing Stage 3 aero kit.

[r0tor]

Lol... Just read the article. 

The temp for the test was only 70deg and they still have overheating.  The magic suspension mode is not available yet and was designed specifically for that track. 

Also, rear caster is usually not a real big deal.  Factory settings are 0 to .8deg so the car was maybe 1 deg off? But, when changing caster the camber changes - that is a big deal.  I wonder if the complete alignment was independently checked prior to going out.

Also, lol for not inviting the GTR for the "rematch".

[hotrodalex]

The butthurt over this car is immense.

[MrH]

The butthurt over this car is immense.

+1

Errbody's talking in absolutes when zero meaningful data is available.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

GM built an engine that is under engineered since they have to retard ignition to make the engine last the length of the warranty. Everyone defending something like this would be all over Dodge if it was the Viper, or Ford if it was the Mustang, or Ferrari if it was the 458. Why does GM get a pass for screwing up like this?  They claim it's the most track capable Vette yet, but that's a lie just because of this one issue...never mind the straightaway speed killing Stage 3 aero kit.

Yeah because we all know Ford wouldn't do anything this stupid! **COUGH** Warranty voiding Line Lock **COUGH**
 

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

The butthurt over this car is immense.

YUP! I do agree that the ECU thing is silly but even with that "handicap" the Z06 still runs with the best of them!

[r0tor]

I should also point out that when/if the one off suspension setting will be available, it will be sold through GM performance - meaning both Vetted tested are no longer "stock" and therefore a stock nismo GTR still stomps a stock C7 Z07

[SVT666]

Yeah because we all know Ford wouldn't do anything this stupid! **COUGH** Warranty voiding Line Lock **COUGH**

What does that have to do with GM producing an engine that is under engineered?

GM's incompetence is mind blowing.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

What does that have to do with GM producing an engine that is under engineered?

GM's incompetence is mind blowing.

My point is you are busting GMs balls about the ECU issue while acting like you favorite Manufacturer hasn't made so stupid decisions also! Why put a Line Lock on a car but void the warranty if it's used!?! Hell even when the GT-R debut its warranty was voided if you used the Launch Control IIRC. I haven't heard one complain about either...

[GoCougs]

Exactly as I had stated, we didn't know the entire picture. Not sure how a car like that didn't get the fine tooth comb treatment before going out to a comparison test but w/e, some M/T idiot could have curb'd it.

So beating a GTR NISMO for ~$100k is so lol it's hard to process really.

[SVT666]

My point is you are busting GMs balls about the ECU issue while acting like you favorite Manufacturer hasn't made so stupid decisions also! Why put a Line Lock on a car but void the warranty if it's used!?! Hell even when the GT-R debut its warranty was voided if you used the Launch Control IIRC. I haven't heard one complain about either...

There were tons of complaints about the GT-R Launch Control, and lots of people have complained about the line lock voiding Ford's warranty.  Have you been living under a rock? Making a dumb decision like a warranty thing is NOT the same as botching the drivetrain engineering like GM has.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

There were tons of complaints about the GT-R Launch Control, and lots of people have complained about the line lock voiding Ford's warranty.  Have you been living under a rock? Making a dumb decision like a warranty thing is NOT the same as botching the drivetrain engineering like GM has.

I was referring to all of the GM haters on this forum! And the ECU cutting power at extreme temps IS CLEARLY there to protect the engine. Thats no different from what Ford or Nissan did! Calling a car that OUTRUNS the NISMO while in "Limp Mode" botched is crazy!

[SVT666]

I was referring to all of the GM haters on this forum! And the ECU cutting power at extreme temps IS CLEARLY there to protect the engine. Thats no different from what Ford or Nissan did! Calling a car that OUTRUNS the NISMO while in "Limp Mode" botched is crazy!

Extreme temps? Really? 70 degrees is extreme?

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Extreme temps? Really? 70 degrees is extreme?

NO! The extreme temps of the driveline.

[MX793]

NO! The extreme temps of the driveline.

No car with a properly functioning cooling system (clean radiator, working fans, working water pump, proper coolant level) should ever reach "extreme temperatures" when driven at 70F.  Even if driven hard.  The cooling system is plainly under-sized/under-spec'ed.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

No car with a properly functioning cooling system (clean radiator, working fans, working water pump, proper coolant level) should ever reach "extreme temperatures" when driven at 70F.  Even if driven hard.  The cooling system is plainly under-sized/under-spec'ed.

I agree!

[MX793]

I agree!

And that's the problem.  It's not that the ECU cuts power to protect the car when it gets hot.  Every car does that.  It's that the car gets hot enough to cause the ECU to cut power when ambient temperatures aren't particularly high (and well before other cars driven just as hard in the same conditions are experiencing heat issues) that's the problem.

[hotrodalex]

And that's the problem.  It's not that the ECU cuts power to protect the car when it gets hot.  Every car does that.  It's that the car gets hot enough to cause the ECU to cut power when ambient temperatures aren't particularly high (and well before other cars driven just as hard in the same conditions are experiencing heat issues) that's the problem.

But not every car seems to do it. Ridetech hasn't had an issue with their test car (see one of my previous posts) and they beat on their cars. Kinda odd.

[MX793]

Are theirs manuals?  Most of the issues seem to be with the autos.  No mention in the latest MT test of the manual car having any cooling issues.

[GoCougs]

I was referring to all of the GM haters on this forum! And the ECU cutting power at extreme temps IS CLEARLY there to protect the engine. Thats no different from what Ford or Nissan did! Calling a car that OUTRUNS the NISMO while in "Limp Mode" botched is crazy!

In fine M/T fashion IMO it was poorly written. To me it sounds like it was the auto car that was being throttled back and it was because the tranny was running hot (as all autos will quickly do when driven hard).

[r0tor]

Exactly as I had stated, we didn't know the entire picture. Not sure how a car like that didn't get the fine tooth comb treatment before going out to a comparison test but w/e, some M/T idiot could have curb'd it.

So beating a GTR NISMO for ~$100k is so lol it's hard to process really.

A modified Vette "beat" (well not really because they didn't invite the GTR back on the nice cool day they chose for the Vette) a stock Nismo GTR... Yippee

[12,000 RPM]

You're out of your mind if you think Motor Trend is stupid enough to not notice that the suspension is exactly the same yet it has more power.

A couple of days ago I asked Ridetech's boss about his new Z06. They went out and tested it along with their new C3 'Vette build. Said they did 23 minutes of hot laps and the engine ran at 226 degrees F, oil at 262 F.

Multiple tuners have come out with less conservative ECU tunes, since they don't have to worry about emissions or 100,000 mile warranties. Problem solved. Although chances of GM doing the same tune from the factory are super slim, unfortunately. Not a good sign for future performance cars - emissions and MPG requirements from the government are only going to make it more difficult to provide showroom-floor race cars. The rise of hybrid supercars is further evidence.

It kind of sucks that this level of performance has been reached at a time where regulations are this high. But truthfully the idea of a race car without a race car driver seems stupid as hell to me. 400, 500, 600, 700 HP Joe HELOC can barely drive any of em faster than whats required to peacock through a C&C parking lot. Stingray (or C5/C6) with mods is the more rational choice