Cadillac CT6 Flagship to Make Debut: March 31st 2015 at NYIAS / Latest Caddy Updates

[12,000 RPM]

Lots of examples of V8s recently either being de-emphasized or replaced by smaller motors: M3/M4, S4/S5, Lexus GS, Audi A6, M-B E Class, and of course, standing on its own in proving the point, the F150.

No one really cares about motors - the turbo-4s in the A4, C Class, 3er, TLX, and the bevy of lux cute SUVs prove that.

The small turbo V8s in the German lux cars are kinda sucky. They don't do anything better than an equivalent TTV6 and then automakers lose out big on economies of scale/scope. This is why V8s have started going away in the mid size segment (A6, E Class, GS) and IMO logic says will go away in the next cycle or two in the full size lux segment save for hi-po models.

Also, the Cadillac chief has already reported the CT6 will get a TTV8 for the -V iteration.

Literally none of the cars u listed are flagships. Of flagships, i.e. S/7/A8/XJ, twin turbo 6s are at the bottom and V8s are midrange. S class, the benchmark, doesn't even have a 6 in the US. And most of the Germans still have twin turbo V12s at the top. No excuse for pansy ass 6 as the bread and butter motor on what will start out as an 80-90K car.

[GoCougs]

Guys, guys, guys. The point is, as V8s go in lesser classes, so they will go in others; the A8 and 7er now have 6-cyl options (and the A6 and 5er have turbo 4 options), which is the obvious harbinger.

All consumer products are about economy of scale/scope to some extent. Sure the AMG, M and RS cars will be around for a while but within two model cycles that's probably the only way you're gonna get anything more than a V6.

The new crop of 400+ hp TTV6s are ~3.5L which aren't going to be materially less refined than a 4.0L TT V8.

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Most Euro turbo 6 bangers are 3 liter units. For example aside from its V8 BMW is pretty much fully committed to 500cc cylinders. Audi and Benz blown V6s are 3.0L. As good as tech is, even with boost you can't beat displacement. But with boost the discrepancy between a 300 HP 6 and a 400 HP 8 on an efficiency basis are essentially nil.... for example A8 3.0T vs 4.0T have the same fuel economy. Most of the blown 8s only lose about 2-3 MPG/15% fuel efficiency despite making 25-30% more HP. And on the refinement front, more pistons = smoother running, and more displacement = more linear response and low end torque.

Most importantly though, GM paved the way for V8 ubiquity in luxury and utility so for them to not have one in their flagship luxury sedan is bogus. I am not going to throw a Z07 jihad level temper tantrum over it, but ultimately it's a huge misstep. Another strike AGAINST Cadillac when doing comparative shopping. Makes no sense.

[68_427]

The CT6 is getting a TT V8.  Just not at launch.

[GoCougs]

Most Euro turbo 6 bangers are 3 liter units. For example aside from its V8 BMW is pretty much fully committed to 500cc cylinders. Audi and Benz blown V6s are 3.0L. As good as tech is, even with boost you can't beat displacement. But with boost the discrepancy between a 300 HP 6 and a 400 HP 8 on an efficiency basis are essentially nil.... for example A8 3.0T vs 4.0T have the same fuel economy. Most of the blown 8s only lose about 2-3 MPG/15% fuel efficiency despite making 25-30% more HP. And on the refinement front, more pistons = smoother running, and more displacement = more linear response and low end torque.

Most importantly though, GM paved the way for V8 ubiquity in luxury and utility so for them to not have one in their flagship luxury sedan is bogus. I am not going to throw a Z07 jihad level temper tantrum over it, but ultimately it's a huge misstep. Another strike AGAINST Cadillac when doing comparative shopping. Makes no sense.

Again, for like the 83rd time, you gotta put EPA mpg figures out of your mind. They mean absolutely nothing unless you're exactly driving the EPA cycle (which of course no one does).

When it comes to F/I nothing really matters unless it's a 4-banger (whereby there will be a material drop in refinement).

As I said a page or two ago, Cadillac head reported the CT6 will get a TTV8 for the -V model. Cadillac is just getting out in front of what is happening and will continue to happen - V8s or larger only for the really expensive hi-po packages (M, RS, AMG, etc).

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Real world gas mileage reports generally line up with EPA readings, and show either a material improvement in fuel economy, or the same fuel economy with a huge increase in HP/torque/performance. My Z lined up with EPA estimates to the dot in mixed and pure highway driving. So yea EPA estimates are admissible in the court of CarSPIN.

We will see about that transition. The benchmark, the S Class, does not come with some proletariat 6 banger. It's a V8 or better. If Caddy wants to go to the top, rather than scrap it out with sales losers like the A7 and XJ, it's going to have to come out swinging, and this V6 bullshit is the opposite of that.

In addition, I think the CT6 design is way to conservative for America. They should have sent that to China only, and given us something more visually exciting. That's another thing that will hurt it. It looks like an old man's car.

[Tave]

Mercedes offers V6 engine options on the S-Class.

[SVT666]

Mercedes offers V6 engine options on the S-Class.

They don't offer 4 pots though.

[MX793]

Mercedes offers V6 engine options on the S-Class.

I don't believe the offer one in the US.  S550 is the lowest spec S in the US, last I checked.

[12,000 RPM]

Mercedes offers V6 engine options on the S-Class.

Not in the US.....

[GoCougs]

Real world gas mileage reports generally line up with EPA readings, and show either a material improvement in fuel economy, or the same fuel economy with a huge increase in HP/torque/performance. My Z lined up with EPA estimates to the dot in mixed and pure highway driving. So yea EPA estimates are admissible in the court of CarSPIN.

We will see about that transition. The benchmark, the S Class, does not come with some proletariat 6 banger. It's a V8 or better. If Caddy wants to go to the top, rather than scrap it out with sales losers like the A7 and XJ, it's going to have to come out swinging, and this V6 bullshit is the opposite of that.

In addition, I think the CT6 design is way to conservative for America. They should have sent that to China only, and given us something more visually exciting. That's another thing that will hurt it. It looks like an old man's car.

The EPA is ENTIRELY worthless when it comes to turbo motors.

No one really cares about the S Class - just look to the rest of the "competition" - on one is aiming there either, and again, IMO you're making the mistake that Cadillac wants/can be a M-B or Audi.

It would be terrible business to come out with only a ~$100k V8 S Class fighter.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I hope there comes a day when people don't have to make excuses for a cadillac flagship.

That will be the day that you know they got it right.

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The EPA is ENTIRELY worthless when it comes to turbo motors.

No one really cares about the S Class - just look to the rest of the "competition" - on one is aiming there either, and again, IMO you're making the mistake that Cadillac wants/can be a M-B or Audi.

It would be terrible business to come out with only a ~$100k V8 S Class fighter.

Your opinion isn't worth much, no offense (see sig)

Johan de Nysschen has explicitly said he sees the Germans as direct rivals many times. They benchmarked BMWs for the new ATS/CTS. They are looking to penetrate Europe. Etc. etc. Caddy wanting to be amongst the Germans is a foregone conclusion.

The only thing worse than a $100K V8 S Class fighter would be a $100K V6 S Class fighter (S Class comes with a V8 for 90K). An S Class fighter looking to take the segment of 2 ton luxobarges with dynamics. But I know what it's like to be a fanboi in denial, so get your defense on.

[GoCougs]

Your opinion isn't worth much, no offense (see sig)

Johan de Nysschen has explicitly said he sees the Germans as direct rivals many times. They benchmarked BMWs for the new ATS/CTS. They are looking to penetrate Europe. Etc. etc. Caddy wanting to be amongst the Germans is a foregone conclusion.

The only thing worse than a $100K V8 S Class fighter would be a $100K V6 S Class fighter (S Class comes with a V8 for 90K). An S Class fighter looking to take the segment of 2 ton luxobarges with dynamics. But I know what it's like to be a fanboi in denial, so get your defense on.

If Cadillac is all agro about going after BMW by "benchmarking" its lesser models why isn't the CT6 benchmarked against the S Class?

Logic is logical.

[12,000 RPM]

If Cadillac is all agro about going after BMW by "benchmarking" its lesser models why isn't the CT6 benchmarked against the S Class?

Logic is logical.

Theres nothing logical about your rhetorical question.... the S Class is a Mercedes, not a BMW. Cadillac's leadership has explicitly expressed who it wants to rival in the market, who it has benchmarked in the market and has priced its cars up against who it thinks it should be competing with. Claiming they never wanted to compete with the Germans after they failed to do so is hilariously dishonest.

[GoCougs]

Theres nothing logical about your rhetorical question.... the S Class is a Mercedes, not a BMW. Cadillac's leadership has explicitly expressed who it wants to rival in the market, who it has benchmarked in the market and has priced its cars up against who it thinks it should be competing with. Claiming they never wanted to compete with the Germans after they failed to do so is hilariously dishonest.

Sure it's logical - if Cadillac is benchmarking why didn't they do it? The answer is the S Class is not the benchmark for the CT6. In feature/function, they're going after the lesser A8 and 7er models.

I never said anything about Cadillac not wanting to compete with the Germans - sometimes your Internetry is just painful.

[AltinD]

They don't offer 4 pots though.

They will, if they haven't started already. Same with Audi and probably BMW

[AltinD]

Sure it's logical - if Cadillac is benchmarking why didn't they do it? The answer is the S Class is not the benchmark for the CT6. In feature/function, they're going after the lesser A8 and 7er models.

I never said anything about Cadillac not wanting to compete with the Germans - sometimes your Internetry is just painful.

But the Cadillac boss said that they were surprised how good the new S-class came to be, how they didn't though Mercedes had it in them (which is totally a moronic and getting-the-boot worthy of a statement) and that they had to go back on the drawing board for the new flagship

[Submariner]

But the Cadillac boss said that they were surprised how good the new S-class came to be, how they didn't though Mercedes had it in them (which is totally a moronic and getting-the-boot worthy of a statement) and that they had to go back on the drawing board for the new flagship

lol - the segment leader for big luxo-barges doesn't have it in them to top the previous S-class?  What a dolt. 

Do you have a link to that comment? 

[12,000 RPM]

lol - the segment leader for big luxo-barges doesn't have it in them to top the previous S-class?  What a dolt. 

Do you have a link to that comment?

Methinks u misread.... what segment is Cadillac leading in, aside from "6 figure SUVs that can tow boats"?

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Methinks u misread.... what segment is Cadillac leading in, aside from "6 figure SUVs that can tow boats"?

I think his comment was mocking the fact that the cadillac boss was shocked that Mercedes could outdo themselves.

Mercedes being the luxury leader.

Basically it's like a has been or never was being surprised a hall of famer can still smack a few dingers even though he hasn't played for a year. It's frankly an asinine statement, one I believe 100% that would come from the mouth of a GM employee.

[Submariner]

Methinks u misread.... what segment is Cadillac leading in, aside from "6 figure SUVs that can tow boats"?

What Sporty said. 

All my Merc fanboyism aside, the S-class is the leader of this segment, hands down.  Cadillac thinking that Mercedes wouldn't double down on it's flagship, especially given the Mercs excellent competition, is all sorts of ignorant. 

I watched five minutes of a Cadillac rep blabbering about how great the CT6 is, and he mentioned or alluded to the S-class at least ten times.  It's very clear what car Cadillac targeted with the CT6 and it's even more clear when you remember that there is going to be a car slotted above the CT6 (a Maybach 600 competitor, presumably).

But leave it up to Cadillac to make this car about driving dynamics when buyers don't care about that.  Take the mediocre sales of the excellent, but poorly thought out (market wise) ATS and CTS and apply that to a segment that cares even less about driving purity.  That's the CT6. 

[Galaxy]

But leave it up to Cadillac to make this car about driving dynamics when buyers don't care about that.  Take the mediocre sales of the excellent, but poorly thought out (market wise) ATS and CTS and apply that to a segment that cares even less about driving purity.  That's the CT6. 

I am not so sure I agree with that. And Cadillac is not the only one doing that. Look at BMW who last week let journalists drive prototypes of the new 7 Series, around a track no less, with the emphasis being on demonstrating to them how good the next 7 Series is dynamically, which was always a criticism of the current 7er. Also note that while sales of the A8/7er/S class are increasing, they are not increasing nearly as fast as sales of the AMG/M/S,RS cars. I would say almost the majority of Audi have the S line package on board. In the end it is to a large extent about perception. Many people want the perception of a "sporty" car. One could argue that for a market like the US with pot hole ridden roads, less emphasis on driving dynamics, and more on comfort would be for the better.

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I dont think people who want sporty cars are buying 2.5 ton land yachts. If they do they can buy 911s and stuff.

Focus here absolutely has to be on max luxury, which is build quality, isolation, technology. A lot of the folks buying Ss and 7s don't drive em.... they have drivers. So focusing on dynamics is IMO idiotic

"You failed George, because you had the wrong dream"

[Galaxy]

I dont think people who want sporty cars are buying 2.5 ton land yachts. If they do they can buy 911s and stuff.

Focus here absolutely has to be on max luxury, which is build quality, isolation, technology. A lot of the folks buying Ss and 7s don't drive em.... they have drivers. So focusing on dynamics is IMO idiotic

"You failed George, because you had the wrong dream"

Even Rolls Royce is starting to focus more on cars for self drivers.

[12,000 RPM]

Even Rolls Royce is starting to focus more on cars for self drivers.

These are the kinds of guys buying Rolls Royces



Fiddy does not give a shit about driving engagement, he summed up the motivation for Rolls Royce ownership in a 2 second clip

[Galaxy]

Or you can go drifting through your garden. 

The Garden of Wraith - by Rolls Royce

Might get you banned from the cricket club if they find out.

[AltinD]

lol - the segment leader for big luxo-barges doesn't have it in them to top the previous S-class?  What a dolt. 

Do you have a link to that comment? 

I read it on an article about an interview he had during an Autoshow, probably when they presented the ELR concept (or whatever was the coupe called). Sadly I can't find the link anymore.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-cadillac-ct6-first-drive-review

[TBR]

This is probably a stupid question, but what is this supposed to compete with? 7-series or 5-series?