Explorer Thread!

[CALL_911]

I really want to try using the starter to get over stuff.

Ha I was daydreaming about that today

[Cookie Monster]

I would have to be stuck for 3 hours before I convinced myself to use the starter.

My 4Runner has a clutch bypass switch on the dash meant for just that.

[TBR]

Someone mentioned it but if AT is an option I really like the pre boxy Pathfinders. The last couple of model years had the vq.

[Rupert]

There's a 2002-2005 and a 2006-2010. The 2006s and up look huge but the 02-05s might not be so bad. Definitely cheaper than 4Runners, though equally difficult to find one with low miles.

Ah, so there are. Wiki says they're pretty much the same size, and my folks' looks pretty much the same size as mine. I wouldn't worry about that.

[TBR]

Yeah..pretty sure the 2002-2010 uses the same basic structure / body with only the front clip being entirely different.

[Rupert]

I really want to try using the starter to get over stuff.

We've been over this, and that is a dumb idea. That switch is for bump starting. You will not be able to get up anything any better using the starter vs. the engine. You're still limited to the gearing in the truck, and you'll have little control with the starter. You can try it, but you'd be an idiot, and no, it's not a hardcore super offroader secret.

If you do go out "off roading", make sure you go with someone to pull you out, because you will get stuck.

[Rupert]

My 4Runner has a clutch bypass switch on the dash meant for just that.

No.

[BimmerM3]

Yeah..pretty sure the 2002-2010 uses the same basic structure / body with only the front clip being entirely different.

There are very minor size and weight differences (most notably, the 02-05 has a bit more ground clearance and is a bit lighter), and it looks like the 2006- got an upgraded V8, but otherwise they're pretty similar.

I'm slowly working on building a spreadsheet to compare all the different models/engines/trims/years of cars I'm looking at. So far, the JGC looks like the best balance on paper, but everywhere I look online that's not on a Jeep forum pretty much says that their reliability and build quality are pretty bad.

Other than that, the 4Runner still looks like the best choice, though I still have a lot of specs to research. I might have to seriously consider bumping up my price range, as much as I don't want to. I'll have a better idea after my annual review next week.

I also need to do some research into exactly how bad the Xterra's transmission problems were. If they aren't that serious, they're looking like the best balance of price/capability/size/reliability.

[AutobahnSHO]

We've been over this, and that is a dumb idea. That switch is for bump starting. You will not be able to get up anything any better using the starter vs. the engine.

You're doing it wrong then

[Rupert]

You're doing it wrong then

I'm not doing it at all, for obvious reasons.

[2o6]

That just sounds like a great way to burn up and ruin a starter.


I ruined my friends Corolla AE86 starter when it got stuck on for 30 seconds

[Cookie Monster]

We've been over this, and that is a dumb idea. That switch is for bump starting. You will not be able to get up anything any better using the starter vs. the engine. You're still limited to the gearing in the truck, and you'll have little control with the starter. You can try it, but you'd be an idiot, and no, it's not a hardcore super offroader secret.

If you do go out "off roading", make sure you go with someone to pull you out, because you will get stuck.

Why would you need a clutch bypass button to bump start? You're supposed to actually use[ the clutch to bump start a car. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to know that since you sold your old Jeep because you thought it was broken and didn't know how to bump start it. (see, I can be condescending too)

A quick 5 minute Google search shows people on various offroading forums saying that clutch bypass systems are meant to be used on steep inclines or any place where rolling back wouldn't be an option. Obviously it's not great for the starter but that's exactly what it was designed to do.

[FoMoJo]

Why would you need a clutch bypass button to bump start? You're supposed to actually use[ the clutch to bump start a car. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to know that since you sold your old Jeep because you thought it was broken and didn't know how to bump start it. (see, I can be condescending too)

A quick 5 minute Google search shows people on various offroading forums saying that clutch bypass systems are meant to be used on steep inclines or any place where rolling back wouldn't be an option. Obviously it's not great for the starter but that's exactly what it was designed to do.

I though clutch bypass systems were used when installing remote starters.

[Rupert]

Why would you need a clutch bypass button to bump start? You're supposed to actually use[ the clutch to bump start a car. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to know that since you sold your old Jeep because you thought it was broken and didn't know how to bump start it. (see, I can be condescending too)

A quick 5 minute Google search shows people on various offroading forums saying that clutch bypass systems are meant to be used on steep inclines or any place where rolling back wouldn't be an option. Obviously it's not great for the starter but that's exactly what it was designed to do.

Well I was wrong to be so snarky-- went back and looked at the previous discussion, and it wasn't as black and white as I'd thought. However...

How far back did you have to search to find that old chestnut? That actually was not the reason I sold that massive pile of shit Jeep, and of course I know how to bump start a car. Could be I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the clutch switch was on the ignition wire as well (i.e. prevents the car from starting at all, not just the starter from spinning). If that's the case, then yes, you would need to bypass the switch to bump start.

Link me if you like, but again, that's not what you're supposed to use it for. If you've stopped on an incline so steep you can't start off again in 4lo without stalling or before rolling off the road of something, you've already fucked it up. Roll to the bottom and try again. If you can't roll to the bottom, use the e-brake to hold you as you get moving. If you can't do that (e-brake is busted, but then why are you even out there in a place you might need it), then maybe I can see a reason to use the clutch bypass. You would start the car in gear, with much lurching and out-of-controlness, and it might not work. But you would never use only the starter intentionally to climb something, that's ridiculous. It's not a first choice thing, you don't just go, gee, this is kind of steep, better use the starter.

So sorry for being an ass for no reason, but you still don't seem to know what you're talking about.

[GoCougs]

We've been over this, and that is a dumb idea. That switch is for bump starting. You will not be able to get up anything any better using the starter vs. the engine. You're still limited to the gearing in the truck, and you'll have little control with the starter. You can try it, but you'd be an idiot, and no, it's not a hardcore super offroader secret.

If you do go out "off roading", make sure you go with someone to pull you out, because you will get stuck.

Starter motors are DC motors and thus do not have any inherent current limiting nature. They'll draw enough amps to burn themselves up if they're loaded up enough which is exactly what happens when it is tasked with moving a car vs. just turning the engine. Further, all that additional torque output will put huge stress on the gears/shaft/bearings of the solenoid and motor, which is asking to jam the works.

Between an e-brake, 4Lo, and decent clutch skills I see no utility in using the starter for anything other than turning the engine, even if there weren't any risk of damaging it. I think mfrs put 'em for practical reasons - imagine wearing some big ass work boots - would be a PITA or maybe impossible to depress the clutch to the floor to trigger the start switch (I had that issue with Sorels when driving my Tacoma).

[Cookie Monster]

Well I was wrong to be so snarky-- went back and looked at the previous discussion, and it wasn't as black and white as I'd thought. However...

How far back did you have to search to find that old chestnut? That actually was not the reason I sold that massive pile of shit Jeep, and of course I know how to bump start a car. Could be I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the clutch switch was on the ignition wire as well (i.e. prevents the car from starting at all, not just the starter from spinning). If that's the case, then yes, you would need to bypass the switch to bump start.

Link me if you like, but again, that's not what you're supposed to use it for. If you've stopped on an incline so steep you can't start off again in 4lo without stalling or before rolling off the road of something, you've already fucked it up. Roll to the bottom and try again. If you can't roll to the bottom, use the e-brake to hold you as you get moving. If you can't do that (e-brake is busted, but then why are you even out there in a place you might need it), then maybe I can see a reason to use the clutch bypass. You would start the car in gear, with much lurching and out-of-controlness, and it might not work. But you would never use only the starter intentionally to climb something, that's ridiculous. It's not a first choice thing, you don't just go, gee, this is kind of steep, better use the starter.

So sorry for being an ass for no reason, but you still don't seem to know what you're talking about.

"Three-footing the clutch, brake, and gas on a steep hill is difficult, especially when your buddy parked his freshly painted rig two millimeters behind you. Sometimes you want to start your rig in gear, without losing any position on the obstacle. Sometimes it is convenience, but other times it is darn near necessary for safety. With the clutch safety switch bypassed, turning the key spins the starter -- and holding the key turned to the start position keeps the engine slowly turning until it fires and the vehicle idles off (all without stomping on any of the pedals).

4-wheelers with low gears want to be able to start in low gear -- as noted before, sometimes safety almost requires it -- but it also may be their lowest gear. Think about it... many starters have an additional set of reduction gears built into them, and electric motors develop their peak torque regardless of RPM. If the starter motor can turn against the load of the vehicle, the truck will move up the obstacle. This is pretty rough on the starter, and lengthy use of the starter as the sole means of motivation for the rig will dramatically reduce the life of your starter."

http://www.4x4wire.com/tech/minutemods/clutchbypass/

If you search for "clutch safety bypass" on google, the vast majority is for off-road vehicles (Jeeps, Xterras, etc). Why would that be the case if it weren't used for offroading? And why does mine (and older Jeeps and I'm sure others) come with one stock? The newer Wranglers have a simple "mod" that just requires a fuse to be able to use the clutch bypass, which is even referred to in the owners manual.

I've bump started 4-5 different cars and none of them have had anything that prevented the motor from spinning over when bump started. Hell, I've done it on my old Volvo 240 and my NC Miata.

Oh, and I'm not dumb. I remember Run Away telling you to bump start the Jeep, and you not being able to (or didn't understand how to). The dudes who bought it just bumped it and drove away.

[MX793]

The clutch pedal interlock only locks out the starter motor, not the ignition.  If it did the latter, the car would stall as soon as you let the clutch out.  Bump starting uses the wheels to turn the engine over instead of the starter motor.  Provided the ignition is on and you have fuel, the motor will start if you can turn it over fast enough.

As to using the starter when rock crawling, yes, it's pretty common practice.  It's only supposed to be done when in 1-lo (crawler gear) where torque multiplication is so high that there is minimal strain on the starter.  It can also be beneficial getting unstuck on a slick surface since an electric motor can create torque at 0 rpm.

[Rupert]

"Three-footing the clutch, brake, and gas on a steep hill is difficult, especially when your buddy parked his freshly painted rig two millimeters behind you. Sometimes you want to start your rig in gear, without losing any position on the obstacle. Sometimes it is convenience, but other times it is darn near necessary for safety. With the clutch safety switch bypassed, turning the key spins the starter -- and holding the key turned to the start position keeps the engine slowly turning until it fires and the vehicle idles off (all without stomping on any of the pedals).

4-wheelers with low gears want to be able to start in low gear -- as noted before, sometimes safety almost requires it -- but it also may be their lowest gear. Think about it... many starters have an additional set of reduction gears built into them, and electric motors develop their peak torque regardless of RPM. If the starter motor can turn against the load of the vehicle, the truck will move up the obstacle. This is pretty rough on the starter, and lengthy use of the starter as the sole means of motivation for the rig will dramatically reduce the life of your starter."

http://www.4x4wire.com/tech/minutemods/clutchbypass/

If you search for "clutch safety bypass" on google, the vast majority is for off-road vehicles (Jeeps, Xterras, etc). Why would that be the case if it weren't used for offroading? And why does mine (and older Jeeps and I'm sure others) come with one stock? The newer Wranglers have a simple "mod" that just requires a fuse to be able to use the clutch bypass, which is even referred to in the owners manual.

I've bump started 4-5 different cars and none of them have had anything that prevented the motor from spinning over when bump started. Hell, I've done it on my old Volvo 240 and my NC Miata.

Oh, and I'm not dumb. I remember Run Away telling you to bump start the Jeep, and you not being able to (or didn't understand how to). The dudes who bought it just bumped it and drove away.

1) That's all way more hardcore offroading than your 4Runner is capable of (note especially extra-low gears and situations your car will never be able to get into), and 2) it's still a stupid idea. I admit I have no idea why Toyota installed that switch as stock, but if you use it for, uh, anything, you're Doing It Wrong, for all the reasons previously outlined. I suspect marketing.

I have no idea about who said what when about that Jeep, it was almost 10 years ago. It had a lot of problems, and was getting sold no matter if or how it started. The guy who bought it did indeed bump start it and drive away. I'm more concerned with why you have to bump start so many cars.

[hotrodalex]

I'd rather use a winch to get out than kill my starter.

[GoCougs]

As to starting on a hill - one won't ever be able to exactly time disengaging the starter and hitting the gas which means one has two options - stalling the engine or overspeeding the starter.

If a starter was meant to be used to do any material work in moving a vehicle it would be 10x beefier and have dual batteries.

[MX793]

As to starting on a hill - one won't ever be able to exactly time disengaging the starter and hitting the gas which means one has two options - stalling the engine or overspeeding the starter.

If a starter was meant to be used to do any material work in moving a vehicle it would be 10x beefier and have dual batteries.

If the goal is trying to crawl out of a loose surface hill with low traction, you're not going to be giving it the gas.  If the starter has enough grunt to move the vehicle, then engine idle is all you need in crawler gear to move.

[BimmerM3]

Tasks for today:

-Test drive Exploder
-Test drive 4Runner

Also starting to wonder if I should take a serious look at pick-ups. Tacomas are too expensive (even worse than 4Runners), but F-150s might be feasible.

[ifcar]

Dark horse: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&modelCode1=RIDGELINE&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=98720&startYear=1981&makeCode1=HONDA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BHONDA%5BRIDGELINE%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=391034445&Log=0

[hotrodalex]

Pickup with a cap might be decent.

[Laconian]

Hummer H1 or go home.

[2o6]

Dark horse: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&modelCode1=RIDGELINE&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=98720&startYear=1981&makeCode1=HONDA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BHONDA%5BRIDGELINE%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=391034445&Log=0

With real time 4WD


So it's useless off road

[GoCougs]

With real time 4WD


So it's useless off road

Nah, it'd be fine for pot-holed gravel roads and moderately deep snow. Smooth quiet ride. Lots of interior room. Will rival the 4Runner in reliability (but will have the timing belt issue at 105k). It also has locking t-case functionality and limited slip rear (not sure if it's on all models though). It's a good option.

[Rupert]

I have no idea about the Ridgeline, other than it's not well-thought of, but he's probably going to encounter more than potholed gravel roads. I would expect lots of unsurfaced roads with ruts and gullies and washouts.

[hotrodalex]

I think a Ridgeline would work for any trail he'd feel comfortable driving on.

[2o6]

Then look at other car based SUV's, too.