LSD instead of AWD?

[Xer0]

So I live in Chicago and we've recently been bombarded by days upon days of snow and frozen temperatures.  In the midst of all of this, my Civic has never gotten stuck or spun its tires standing still.  This is in comparison to my old Civic which would always get stuck and spin its tires.  So, this got me thinking, why is one better than the other?  For reference, I went from a 2008 Civic LX or a 2013 Civic Si (yeah yeah, Honda fan boi).

First, I checked to see if maybe the Si has a ton more weight over its front wheels helping in traction.  Nope.  Both models are listed as having 60/61% over their front wheels.  Side note, have FWD Honda's always had such shitty weight distribution or is that just modern ones.

Second, I thought it was maybe the tires.  My old Civic had MXM4 Grand-Touring All Seasons while the new one has Pilot Sport All-Seasons.  From what I can tell from reviews, the Pilot Sports aren't the greatest in the snow.  So it looks like my tires degraded but I've been having fewer traction issues.

So third I looked to see what equipment difference distinguishes the two cars.  The Si has more power and a manual, but it also has an LSD.  After looking up exactly how they work and what they do last night, I'm pretty sure its this thing that is helping me out.  So, now the question.  If I'm right and the LSD is this helpful in snow/ice conditions, then why don't manufacturers equip it instead of complex, expensive, and heavy AWD systems in their cars? 

[r0tor]

Good for traction from a standstill in the snow.  Really good for putting you in a ditch during a turn in the snow.  That would be why they aren't mainstream.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Consumers demand the beauty of AWD. Nobody knows what a LSD is, or why they may want it over an open diff. Most car enthusiasts barely seem to grasp how differentials work. Maybe 30+ years ago, sone people knew what a "posi" was and they sold a few. These days, AWD/4WD is all the same to the consumer. "All four wheels spin". Doesn't matter if the AWD system uses open diff or LSD, never mind how the center diff works. People are clueless.

[SVT666]

The manual transmission helps you modulate the throttle better by way of feathering the clutch. Was your old car a manual or auto?

[Rupert]

Mash the gas mid-corner in the snow with an LSD and get back to us.

It sounds like it's probably the LSD that's helping you, yes. The argument against LSD in snow is that with the traction so low, it's pretty easy to spin both drive wheels when you apply the gas, and then half the car is out of control (more or less). It's a bit more compelling with a RWD car, and especially with a pickup truck (light rear end), than it is with a FWD car, but AFAIK the effect is pretty much the same. With an open diff, only one wheel spins, which gives you a much better chance of retaining control of that end of the car.

On the other hand, traction control, so .

[Rupert]

The manual transmission helps you modulate the throttle better by way of feathering the clutch. Was your old car a manual or auto?

Huh?

[Eye of the Tiger]

I drove 2wd Sonoma with a locker in the rear end, in Michigan, in the winter. It was not scary at all in the snow and ice. It was pretty nice, actually.

[AutobahnSHO]

most common performance upgrade on the gen1 SHO was LSD. Helped not explode the trannies.

[shp4man]

I drove a '65 Plymouth from Tucson to LA one time on LSD. Ok, it was a late  '60's version of LSD. 

[Rupert]

[Eye of the Tiger]

I drove a '65 Plymouth from Tucson to LA one time on LSD. Ok, it was a late  '60's version of LSD. 

[hotrodalex]

most common performance upgrade on the gen1 SHO was LSD. Helped not explode the trannies.

What? If anything I'm worried about adding an LSD to my car because of the transmission. It requires more torque to spin the wheels, which means more drive train shock vs. Just spinning one

[Byteme]

Limited Slip is useful in slippery conditions if you know how to drive.  Nothing is more frustrating than being stuck on nearly level ground with one rear tire on a patch of ice and the other on dry pavement (been there done that) without LSD.  The car sits there and uselessly spins the tire on the ice. 

I guess AWD is good.  the only vehicle I've driven with AWD was a Navy Dodge 4X4 crash truck, the big boxy ambulances.  the ride, handling and vehicle dynamics in general were so shitty who knew if AWD was useful there or not unless you went out in the rough. 

People today seem to be firmly convinced that if they don't have AWD they are going to crash and burn and be rendered sterile, if they encounter the slightest deviation from smooth, dry, well lit pavement.  I guess they feel AWD is a substitute for actually knowing how to get the most out of 2WD and equally important, knowing when to leave the car in the garage.

[Byteme]

What? If anything I'm worried about adding an LSD to my car because of the transmission. It requires more torque to spin the wheels, which means more drive train shock vs. Just spinning one

So don't pop the clutch at every opportunity, don't drive in such a way as to abuse the driveline and it won't happen.

[hotrodalex]

So don't pop the clutch at every opportunity, don't drive in such a way as to abuse the driveline and it won't happen.

The only time I dump the clutch is when I autocross. 3k clutch dumps every run. 

[68_427]

My old car has a rear LSD.  I believe that it could get through just as deep of snow with all seasons as my current car with dedicated snows because of it.

(Old and current cars are subaru outbacks, one with rear LSD, and now with open difs front/rear.)

[AutobahnSHO]

What? If anything I'm worried about adding an LSD to my car because of the transmission. It requires more torque to spin the wheels, which means more drive train shock vs. Just spinning one

The Taurus SHO transmissions were built by mazda and tended to blow up during burnouts because of some weakpoint....

Quaife LSD I guess replaced said weakpoint and people didn't have issues (relatively speaking).   AND, FWD so no worries of ditches in curves. 

[68_427]

The Taurus SHO transmissions were built by mazda and tended to blow up during burnouts because of some weakpoint....

Quaife LSD I guess replaced said weakpoint and people didn't have issues (relatively speaking).   AND, FWD so no worries of ditches in curves. 

Sure there is.  You just bust your radiator instead of your tail pipe

[MX793]

I don't really have much snow driving experience with a limited slip since I don't drive the Mustang in the winter.  The couple of times I did get caught in some minor snow with it, the back end was pretty twitchy both on and off throttle.

Manual transmission makes a difference.  I find it easier to modulate power to the wheels with a manual.

[MX793]

The Taurus SHO transmissions were built by mazda and tended to blow up during burnouts because of some weakpoint....

Quaife LSD I guess replaced said weakpoint and people didn't have issues (relatively speaking).   AND, FWD so no worries of ditches in curves. 

It was probably the differential part of the transaxle.  I've always been told that having one wheel spinning way faster than another with an open diff is hard on the differential.

[r0tor]

Back to the original point, no LSD is not a great alternative to a good AWD or 4x4 system.  I drove a red car with LSD in many snow storms with dedicated snow tires and I never even came close to the confident feel of my jeep with all seasons.

[MX793]

Back to the original point, no LSD is not a great alternative to a good AWD or 4x4 system.  I drove a red car with LSD in many snow storms with dedicated snow tires and I never even came close to the confident feel of my jeep with all seasons.

Of course, your Jeep weighs a lot more and likely has, relative to its weight, narrower tires.  My dad's F150 in 2WD felt more sure-footed in snow than any car I've ever owned (FWD or RWD).

[12,000 RPM]

Open diff gives power to the wheel that slips, so theres that.

Not sure why folks are saying LSDs would put the car in a ditch. Most LSDs are one way (acceleration only).

[Byteme]

Open diff gives power to the wheel that slips, so theres that.

Not sure why folks are saying LSDs would put the car in a ditch. Most LSDs are one way (acceleration only).

Can't drive in the slick? 

[Morris Minor]

EDITED

So, generalizing,  in descending order of desirability for general driving in the snowbelt, I'm going to say:

AWD - snow tires
AWD - all season tires
FWD - snow tires (w/LSD)
FWD - snow tires  <----------< most traction for the buck sweet spot.
FWD - all season tires (LSD)
FWD - all season tires
RWD - snow tires (LSD)
RWD - snow tires
RWD - all season tires (LSD)
RWD - all season tires

I ranked LSD on the assumption of good driving technique: it's better than an open diff for getting you unstuck, but tricky if you drive like an idiot.

[Byteme]

So, generalizing,  in descending order of desirability for general driving in the snowbelt, I'm going to say:

AWD - snow tires
AWD - all season tires
FWD - snow tires (w/LSD)
FWD - snow tires  <----------< most traction for the buck sweet spot.
FWD - all season tires
RWD - snow tires
RWD - snow tires (LSD)
RWD - all season tires
RWD - all season tires (LSD)

I ranked LSD on the assumption of good driving technique: it's better than an open diff for getting you unstuck, but tricky if you drive like an idiot.

Driving like an idiot can get you in trouble regardless of what you are driving.   One concern I've seen regarding AWD and 4WD is that it often gives the average driver better control but also can easily make that same driver overconfident ("I can tackle that, I've got AWD") which can get them into worse trouble.

[hotrodalex]

Learning how to drive correctly makes RWD w/ decent all seasons perfectly acceptable to drive in most conditions. I've done it for the majority of my driving career. Granted I'm not one to brave a crazy snow storm, mostly out of self preservation and lack of trust in other drivers (i.e. I'd be comfortable driving if no one else was on the road to rear end me)

[GoCougs]

I've owned a few cars with RWD LSDs, and have driven them quite a bit in snow. In short, LSD + snow/ice = risky. Note however these were vehicles without any ABS, TC or stability control.

[12,000 RPM]

The Z is tricky with TCS on in the wet so snow is pretty much a no go. I am on summer tires though. Im sure a weak RWD car on snow tires would be fine tho

[SJ_GTI]

EDITED

So, generalizing,  in descending order of desirability for general driving in the snowbelt, I'm going to say:

AWD - snow tires
AWD - all season tires
FWD - snow tires (w/LSD)
FWD - snow tires  <----------< most traction for the buck sweet spot.
FWD - all season tires (LSD)
FWD - all season tires
RWD - snow tires (LSD)
RWD - snow tires
RWD - all season tires (LSD)
RWD - all season tires

I ranked LSD on the assumption of good driving technique: it's better than an open diff for getting you unstuck, but tricky if you drive like an idiot.

I don't think that is right. IMHO (and limited experience with AWD/FWD) having proper snow tires is a much better help than anything else. I would probably go something more like this:

AWD - snow tires
FWD - snow tires (w/LSD)
FWD - snow tires  <----------< most traction for the buck sweet spot.
RWD - snow tires (LSD)
RWD - snow tires
AWD - all season tires
FWD - all season tires (LSD)
FWD - all season tires
RWD - all season tires (LSD)
RWD - all season tires

JMHO of course.