Horse Power figures and HP wars.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

So I was just checking out some videos on the Kawasaki H2. Now, unlike cars, it seems that HP figures for bikes isn't usually front and center(or really even easy to find) on manufacturer sites.

I've always found it a bit odd that there wasn't this obsession with HP with bikes like there is for the automakers.

Now after checking out this H2, and the obvious direction that automotive engines are taking, it got me thinking. Could this be the start of a HP race, or at the least a flood of forced induction bikes?

[shp4man]

So I was just checking out some videos on the Kawasaki H2. Now, unlike cars, it seems that HP figures for bikes isn't usually front and center(or really even easy to find) on manufacturer sites.

I've always found it a bit odd that there wasn't this obsession with HP with bikes like there is for the automakers.

Now after checking out this H2, and the obvious direction that automotive engines are taking, it got me thinking. Could this be the start of a HP race, or at the least a flood of forced induction bikes?

It's possible. I watched the Leno's Garage on the H2. It's one of those bikes that requires a rider skilled in uber horsepower handling. Otherwise, death is imminent.

[MX793]

So I was just checking out some videos on the Kawasaki H2. Now, unlike cars, it seems that HP figures for bikes isn't usually front and center(or really even easy to find) on manufacturer sites.

I've always found it a bit odd that there wasn't this obsession with HP with bikes like there is for the automakers.

Now after checking out this H2, and the obvious direction that automotive engines are taking, it got me thinking. Could this be the start of a HP race, or at the least a flood of forced induction bikes?

For whatever reason, the Japanese manufacturers in particular do not advertise horsepower in the US.  The Euro manufacturers all advertise horsepower, as do the Americans (though Harley only lists torque because, well, you know the demographic...).  I'd read some time ago that several of them actually have policies of not advertising horsepower.  If you go to their European websites, however, horsepower ratings are listed in each model's specs.  I suspect this is due to European requirements (and a license structure that is based on horsepower) and not because they really want to be forthcoming with those figures.  I think it stems from a desire not to get wound up in a horsepower war.  Kind of like the 276 hp "gentlemen's agreement" limit between the Japanese auto manufacturers in the 90s.  Kawasaki and Suzuki both agreed to limit the top speeds on their respective hypersport bikes (Hayabusa and ZX-14) a few years back after both agreed that the top-speed wars were getting out of hand.  Honda bowed out pretty much as soon as their Blackbird was overtaken by the Hayabusa and Yamaha never even made an attempt at that segment.

As to forced induction... we'll see.  It failed miserably in the 80s.  No racing organization, save perhaps the NHRA, permits forced induction in any motorcycle racing class, so any homologated bikes (all of your repli-racers) will stay NA for the time being. 

[Cookie Monster]

It's possible. I watched the Leno's Garage on the H2. It's one of those bikes that requires a rider skilled in uber horsepower handling. Otherwise, death is imminent.

To be fair, most of the supersports/superbikes need a skilled rider...

[FlatBlackCaddy]

For whatever reason, the Japanese manufacturers in particular do not advertise horsepower in the US.  The Euro manufacturers all advertise horsepower, as do the Americans (though Harley only lists torque because, well, you know the demographic...).  I'd read some time ago that several of them actually have policies of not advertising horsepower.  If you go to their European websites, however, horsepower ratings are listed in each model's specs.  I suspect this is due to European requirements (and a license structure that is based on horsepower) and not because they really want to be forthcoming with those figures.  I think it stems from a desire not to get wound up in a horsepower war.  Kind of like the 276 hp "gentlemen's agreement" limit between the Japanese auto manufacturers in the 90s.  Kawasaki and Suzuki both agreed to limit the top speeds on their respective hypersport bikes (Hayabusa and ZX-14) a few years back after both agreed that the top-speed wars were getting out of hand.  Honda bowed out pretty much as soon as their Blackbird was overtaken by the Hayabusa and Yamaha never even made an attempt at that segment.

As to forced induction... we'll see.  It failed miserably in the 80s.  No racing organization, save perhaps the NHRA, permits forced induction in any motorcycle racing class, so any homologated bikes (all of your repli-racers) will stay NA for the time being. 

I was going to make a point about that, the progression of FI tech compared to the 80's. I think that is on thing that may spark this transition on the non repli-racer bikes. FI is now a proven tech that really doesn't carry any of the negative stigma's that it once did. If anything, it's presence alone could be a selling point, regardless of how well it is implemented.

I didn't think it would affect the race bikes and their street equivalents. But I have to wonder if the "bragging rights" hyper bike class might all of a sudden be littered with various High HP FI bikes. The H2 seems to garner a lot of praise, and it's SC system seems to have "no" drawbacks for the customer that one would have gotten on some of the experimental stuff of the past.

Just kind of seems overdue, IMO. Given the maturity of the FI tech coming out on cars. I guess the next 3-5 years will tell.

[12,000 RPM]

Bikes are generally pretty low tech engine wise, which makes me think high tech FI wouldn't necessarily translate. I can count the # of bikes with some form of VVT or VVL on one hand (CB400 VTEC, VFR800 VTEC, Concours VVT, Multistrada VVT). I think Honda has 3 bikes with DCTs. AFAIK there are no bikes with direct injection. All of these things would help with FI a ton.

Also obviously bikes are very limited on space... especially the sporty ones. A turbocharger is pretty much out of the question, with all its plumbing and its need for an intercooler. Superchargers have been done, but they generate a ton of heat, esp without intercoolers. And with a bike's limited front area, there's just not enough real estate for the additional cooling needed by the engine, and the oil, and the intercooler.... unless they start doing weird underseat stuff (which I have seen on the custom end).

I think VVT/VVL would be a much bigger boon to bikes... they could get more aggressive with the cams for more peak power and smooth out the rest of the powerband messing with the timing. Wouldn't add any weight either.

Ironically, while there has definitely been a restart of the literbike arms race, the real action and interest in the non-cruiser/dirt world seems to be with beginner and "midrange" bikes. Yamaha's naked FZ bikes (which make like 75 and 120 HP) are brand new and super popular. All the talk from car folks about wanting "pure" rides is actually happening in bikes.... largely because even a slow bike like mine can deliver performance to make anyone smile.

[Raza]

I think it would be interesting to see more Eco-friendly tech in bikes. MPG is already really good, but they do pollute more than car exhaust. But I guess it's such a small population that it hasn't become necessary yet.

[12,000 RPM]

I think hybrid tech could do a lot on bikes. Most of the braking I do is with the engine. Feeding that back to a battery pack would do a ton for efficiency. I would miss the pop-pop-pop of the overrun though

[Raza]

I think hybrid tech could do a lot on bikes. Most of the braking I do is with the engine. Feeding that back to a battery pack would do a ton for efficiency. I would miss the pop-pop-pop of the overrun though

I would think batteries' weight, placement, and space would be the biggest issue with hybrid bikes. 

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I think with advancing battery tech, most will just skip over complicated hybrid systems and focus on pure electric.

Look at the ls 218. Imagine lower costs due to improved and cheaper components coupled with economies of scale. A company like kawasaki could probably build a slightly less powerful version of the ls for under 20k in a few years, or even a bike that eclipses the ls with twice the range for the price of their current h2. Next decade will be pretty cool imo.

I'm down for electric bikes, would love to own one.

[Cookie Monster]

Brammo already makes a couple of electric bikes that are pretty popular. I don't think hybrids will become a thing because it's too complex and too heavy. Bike motors are small enough as is, adding electric motors and batteries is going to make it a heavy pig. Even the Brammo and Zero all-electric bikes are pretty heavy, low on HP and not that fast.

Considering a motorcycle is a more emotional, pleasurable experience, I want to keep my loud, smelly engine. I love ripping through the gears and blipping the throttle on downshifts and hearing the exhaust scream. Considering how uncommon motorcycles are, who cares if they pollute a lot?

[MX793]

Brammo already makes a couple of electric bikes that are pretty popular. I don't think hybrids will become a thing because it's too complex and too heavy. Bike motors are small enough as is, adding electric motors and batteries is going to make it a heavy pig. Even the Brammo and Zero all-electric bikes are pretty heavy, low on HP and not that fast.

Considering a motorcycle is a more emotional, pleasurable experience, I want to keep my loud, smelly engine. I love ripping through the gears and blipping the throttle on downshifts and hearing the exhaust scream. Considering how uncommon motorcycles are, who cares if they pollute a lot?

The Zero bikes don't seem too bad.  Their Hi-Po model is a little over 400 lbs and offers comparable performance to an entry level middleweight sportbike like the Ninja 650, SV650, or FZ6R.

I think they make sense for urban and maybe suburban commuters (and electric scooters would make even more sense for the former), but I personally don't find myself getting too excited about them.  I ride my bike for recreation and my average ride well exceeds the range of any electric bike on the market and they all take hours to recharge.  For the kind of riding I like to do, they just don't make sense.

[12,000 RPM]

I would think batteries' weight, placement, and space would be the biggest issue with hybrid bikes. 

There is some room for them, plus battery cells could be spread out (and probably should be for cooling). In theory the batteries would also enable smaller fuel tanks. It's even possible the batteries could be embedded in the bike's frame. There are options. Plus you wouldn't need a huge battery to take care of regenerative braking, and you could fit a motor in to either replace or sit around the clutch.

[12,000 RPM]

Considering a motorcycle is a more emotional, pleasurable experience, I want to keep my loud, smelly engine. I love ripping through the gears and blipping the throttle on downshifts and hearing the exhaust scream. Considering how uncommon motorcycles are, who cares if they pollute a lot?

This is my main objection to electric motorcycles. I don't ride to save the environment or w/e. I ride cause it makes me feel alive and connects me back to my lizard brain instincts. Same reason I lift weights. So I need that engine noise. It's all part of the experience.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I've ridden some of the earlier Zero bikes a few years back.

I find the noises from an electric bike(both lack of and engine whine) to be pleasurable, maybe not AS cool sounding as a nice exhaust on a gas bike but enjoyable.

[12,000 RPM]

Until electric bikes sound cooler than a crossplane R1, any Ducati, or an RSV4, I'm not interested.

Aside from saving the environment, I just dont see any upsides to an electric bike.

[MX793]

I've heard some E-bikes that sound like those Imperial TIE fighters from Star Wars when they go screaming past.  They can definitely sound pretty cool in their own right.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Until electric bikes sound cooler than a crossplane R1, any Ducati, or an RSV4, I'm not interested.

Aside from saving the environment, I just dont see any upsides to an electric bike.

The torque can be unreal. As mx said too some can sound pretty crazy.