How much is too much (and are drivers become too reliant on TCS/ESC/etc)?

[MX793]

For about the past year or so I've been lurking around some of the Mustang forums and it seems like I've seen a lot of "wrecked my new car" or "had a really close call" threads.  In most of these cases, the OPs start off with "let me start by saying that this is my first [insert "RWD" and/or "high performance"] car".  Most of the time, the scenario described by the OP leading up to the incident, or near incident, is clearly a case of poor driving.  Punching the throttle hard in a low gear mid corner or not driving appropriately for conditions (damp roads, cold roads and summer tires).  One recent thread I saw, an owner was wondering if there was a problem with their TCS/ESC system because the punched the gas to overtake a slower car on a near-freezing day, on a car equipped with the PerfPack's hi-po summer tires, and the back end kicked out sideways and "the TCS didn't prevent it".

I've also noted a lot of ignorance about proper driving technique, basic vehicle tech, and about Mustangs in general, by many of the owners who post on these forums.  There are people who think that TCS/ESC will can prevent a loss of control regardless of circumstances.  There are people who don't know that the Performance Pack option's tires are summer-only and should not be used in below-freezing temperatures (or even near-freezing, the tire spec sheet states that warranty is void if used at temperatures under 45F) or that it has a differently calibrated TCS and ESC.

I love big power as much as the next motorhead, but have we reached, or passed, the point where performance cars are starting to have too much for the average buyer?  Are 400+ hp cars like the Mustang GT or Camaro SS simply too much for the typical buyer?  And along similar lines, has the average driver become too reliant on nannies like TCS and ESC to compensate for their bad driving habits, which in turn makes them even less capable of handling higher performance vehicles?

[Rupert]

Eh, I think that forums just concentrate all the dumb things people do that they've always done. My uncle totaled my gramma's LeMans in the late '60s speeding along a country road. It wasn't like a hi-po version. I almost wrecked my Miata once coming around a tight corner with a slick spot in the middle. I also almost wrecked my mom's V6 S10 when I tried to do a sweet drift in the rain but didn't predict how fast the back end would come around, and was saved only by ABS. (Many years ago, of course).

I do think it's really silly to have 400 hp in a car though. It's just not possible to apply that much power even remotely safely except for five seconds on the on-ramp when there isn't traffic.

[Soup DeVille]

All I know is that if those 400+ horsepower cars didn't have all the electronannies on them, there's a good set of buyers for them that would be in hospitals or worse.

So to that extent, yes; stability and traction are often substitutes for driving skill.

[Raza]

Yes.  I'm pretty sure we passed it a while ago.

[CaminoRacer]

I think the number of good vs bad drivers is the same, but the availability of hipo cars is always increasing.

[GoCougs]

No. Hi-po cars today are for safer/easier for the average driver to drive at speed than in times past and the average buyer never knew much about proper hi-po driving.

[AutobahnSHO]

Agree with everyone but cougs.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Our pathetic excuse for driver education is the problem. Driving is treated more like a constitutional right than it is the responsibility to competently operate a two-ton death machine.

[MX793]

Eh, I think that forums just concentrate all the dumb things people do that they've always done. My uncle totaled my gramma's LeMans in the late '60s speeding along a country road. It wasn't like a hi-po version. I almost wrecked my Miata once coming around a tight corner with a slick spot in the middle. I also almost wrecked my mom's V6 S10 when I tried to do a sweet drift in the rain but didn't predict how fast the back end would come around, and was saved only by ABS. (Many years ago, of course).

I do think it's really silly to have 400 hp in a car though. It's just not possible to apply that much power even remotely safely except for five seconds on the on-ramp when there isn't traffic.

Obviously, anybody can do stupid stuff in any car and get in over their head, and there's a fair number of threads from people who busted up their cars trying to drift or whatever.  Many of these instances I'm reading about aren't described as people hooning or drifting or otherwise being blatantly reckless.  This seems more like drivers who are simply ignorant of just how much punch 400+ hp is and how easy it is to upset a car with that much power when applying throttle around a curve, or even in a straight line.  Seems like a good many of them are people who are used to driving <250 hp cars and are getting on the throttle in the Mustang as hard as they would on their previous cars to accelerate on an on-ramp or to overtake another car and are losing it.  Most of the time the roads are described as being either cold (sub-40) or wet (or both) and very frequently it's drivers with the performance package (w/ summer tires).

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Yep! and it's a few more things that make drivers worse! Blind Spot Warning/Reverse Cameras for people to lazy to turn their damn heads and look, Automatic breaking so you can concentrate on your mobile device, Cars the park themselves for people to lazy to learn how to park the car like my granny did everyday in a '76 Ford Elite, etc......

[MX793]

No. Hi-po cars today are for safer/easier for the average driver to drive at speed than in times past and the average buyer never knew much about proper hi-po driving.

While I agree that hi-po cars today are easier to drive than their counterparts of 20+ years ago, they are also much more powerful.  Today's Mustang GT and Camaro SS make more power than the mid-90s 911 Turbo, Viper, or ZR-1 and cost 33-40% as much when price is adjusted for inflation.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Automatic headlights, it was all down hill from there. People can't even operate their headlights properly.

The facto of the matter is that this is nothing new, and not unique to automobiles. It's just another example of the majority of people lacking in a basic level of intelligence.

[GoCougs]

While I agree that hi-po cars today are easier to drive than their counterparts of 20+ years ago, they are also much more powerful.  Today's Mustang GT and Camaro SS make more power than the mid-90s 911 Turbo, Viper, or ZR-1 and cost 33-40% as much when price is adjusted for inflation.

Mess around in them side by side (even with electronic nannies off or at their minimum) and my bet is in general a '16 Mustang GT will be less accident prone than a '90 Mustang GT, and it'll definitely be the case that a '90 Mustang GT will be less accident prone than a '64 Mustang V8 when messing around (ditto for a '16 Mustang GT vs. a '93 Viper or '93 ZR1). Sure there are jumps in power and capability between each era, but there are also jumps in suspension, chassis and tire tech. I'd also cite the notable year-after-ear decline in injury and fatalities the last number of decades as a good proxy that the newer the car the safer it is to mess around in, despite it being far more powerful.

[CaminoRacer]

I don't know, some of the newest cars do some weird stuff if you're not careful. Drive by wire and other trickery isn't always as smooth. Also some of them you can't even turn the nannies off all the way. I'm never as confident in a 2010+ car since I never quite know how it's going to react.

[Madman]

Here's where we're headed......

[veeman]

People from different generations have the same intelligence but 20 - 30 years ago, people's brains weren't filled with electronic media stuff.  So they concentrated more on being better drivers. 

The art/skill of driving has been watered down over the years.  In the 70s with rear wheel drive sedans and crappy tires, you had to have some skill to make it home from work in the winter on poorly plowed snow covered roads.  Now, not so much.   

[MX793]

I'd also cite the notable year-after-ear decline in injury and fatalities the last number of decades as a good proxy that the newer the car the safer it is to mess around in, despite it being far more powerful.

Injury rate does not equal accident rate, though.

[Payman]

In the family car, I'm ok with ESP and a back-up camera. Lane departure, crash avoidance, undefeatable TCS can go fuck itself. Most new sports cars are boring at legal speeds, save for the Miata/Spider and BRZ/FRS and maybe one or 2 more. Paddle shift, launch control and the crap mentioned above takes away the "sport" in new sports cars, and any monkey can put down a good lap in cars with this stuff. That's why the FFR MkIV Cobra is so appealing to me. Raw power and handling, and if I wad it up it's on me and my skills, not the artificial skills of the car.

[AutobahnSHO]

I wrecked a 1983 rwd base-model BMW 3series because of some rain. Just takes some inattention and BAM! you're done!!

The power available now is ludicrous for most people. Even with the electronic nannies.

[CaminoRacer]

In the family car, I'm ok with ESP and a back-up camera. Lane departure, crash avoidance, undefeatable TCS can go fuck itself. Most new sports cars are boring at legal speeds, save for the Miata/Spider and BRZ/FRS and maybe one or 2 more. Paddle shift, launch control and the crap mentioned above takes away the "sport" in new sports cars, and any monkey can put down a good lap in cars with this stuff. That's why the FFR MkIV Cobra is so appealing to me. Raw power and handling, and if I wad it up it's on me and my skills, not the artificial skills of the car.

I really wish I had a backup camera for parallol parking so I can see exactly how many millimeters I have.

Edit: wtf I edited spelling and two hours later it was back to the misspelled version?

Edit again: goddamnit is this a turd emoji trick? Parallel p a r a l l e l

[SJ_GTI]

Yeah as said I am certain the net impact of ESB/TC has been a huge boon to safety.

As for myself, I generally leave the ESC on with my car. It is reasonably unobtrusive even in snow/ice. I doubt I could drive better than the computer.

[MX793]

I think ESC/TCS are generally great provided they aren't used as a crutch to compensate for bad habits.  I leave them both on in normal driving, but I drive like I don't have them.

[SVT666]

Are cars too powerful and that's why we need these nannies, or are the nannies what has allowed horsepower to climb so high?

[CaminoRacer]

Are cars too powerful and that's why we need these nannies, or are the nannies what has allowed horsepower to climb so high?

A well sorted modern car with 400-450 hp is not difficult to drive, even without nannies. Suspension and chassis improvements are a bigger part of the driving difference than the nannies. (Proof: The nannies don't kick in 95% of the time yet the car handles the power better)

[12,000 RPM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlg3oQMze4

Yes, too much.

This is an age old argument in the motorcycle world. In theory someone can go get their permit, walk into a dealer and wobble off on a 9 second Hayabusa. The teenage boneheads urge and insist- "anyone can begin on any bike- you just need to respect the bike bro". Problem with that, just like in a powerful car, is multilayered.... either you are constantly tip-toeing around the huge gulf between your ability and the limits of the car, and you never get the confidence or skill to drive the car with any meaningful level of competence, or you drive/ride beyond your ability and kill yourself.

I always come back to racing. 99999 times out of 100K a rider/driver at the top level EARNED their way up through progression and demonstration of skill, as well as the emotional maturity and resolve required to not kill one's self and others on the track.

That 1 out of 100K remnant are pay driver idiots like Vadim Kogay:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/O4HSpx3aBq8

Unfortunately the proportions flip on the street... 1 out of every 100K drivers behind the wheel of something power has some meaningful high speed/at the limit experience or training and everyone else is a double line crossing no idea what happens the limit of traction mash the pedal at a light to "stomp out the poser class" chowderhead

It sucks worse for cars too because 1 obviously a car is more dangerous than a bike but also a bike is way stealthier and more maneuverable than a car. So on a bike I can make passes and squeeze into gaps a car could never do. Even for folks with the skills to handle it it seems like a waste to me.

I think a big part of it is our microwave instant gratification society.... why put the time in at track days and driving schools or w/e when you can just go out and buy a GT500? Never mind the fact that when you hit the strip in it you shit your pants and run high 13s. Society has grown to value buying shit instead of doing and learning shit.

[Payman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlg3oQMze4

Yes, too much.

This is an age old argument in the motorcycle world. In theory someone can go get their permit, walk into a dealer and wobble off on a 9 second Hayabusa. The teenage boneheads urge and insist- "anyone can begin on any bike- you just need to respect the bike bro". Problem with that, just like in a powerful car, is multilayered.... either you are constantly tip-toeing around the huge gulf between your ability and the limits of the car, and you never get the confidence or skill to drive the car with any meaningful level of competence, or you drive/ride beyond your ability and kill yourself.

I always come back to racing. 99999 times out of 100K a rider/driver at the top level EARNED their way up through progression and demonstration of skill, as well as the emotional maturity and resolve required to not kill one's self and others on the track.

That 1 out of 100K remnant are pay driver idiots like Vadim Kogay:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/O4HSpx3aBq8

Unfortunately the proportions flip on the street... 1 out of every 100K drivers behind the wheel of something power has some meaningful high speed/at the limit experience or training and everyone else is a double line crossing no idea what happens the limit of traction mash the pedal at a light to "stomp out the poser class" chowderhead

It sucks worse for cars too because 1 obviously a car is more dangerous than a bike but also a bike is way stealthier and more maneuverable than a car. So on a bike I can make passes and squeeze into gaps a car could never do. Even for folks with the skills to handle it it seems like a waste to me.

I think a big part of it is our microwave instant gratification society.... why put the time in at track days and driving schools or w/e when you can just go out and buy a GT500? Never mind the fact that when you hit the strip in it you shit your pants and run high 13s. Society has grown to value buying shit instead of doing and learning shit.

Good post and a valid point.

[SVT666]

Good post and a valid point.

Not everyone has access to a track.  As posted in another thread, in my case there are exactly three road courses in all of Western Canada (two in Alberta and 1 in BC) and none of them have open track days. 

[Cookie Monster]

Not everyone has access to a track.  As posted in another thread, in my case there are exactly three road courses in all of Western Canada (two in Alberta and 1 in BC) and none of them have open track days. 

So why do you need such a high-hp car if you 1. can't drive it properly without nannies, 2. can't use all its power anyways?

[MX793]

Not everyone has access to a track.  As posted in another thread, in my case there are exactly three road courses in all of Western Canada (two in Alberta and 1 in BC) and none of them have open track days. 

If you can't go to a real road course, auto-x is probably the next best thing.  Lower speeds, but still teaches at the limit handling and throttle control.

[SVT666]

If you can't go to a real road course, auto-x is probably the next best thing.  Lower speeds, but still teaches at the limit handling and throttle control.

True. In fact, I think I'm going to do a couple events this year with our Infiniti G37.