AMC Pacer vs. AMC Gremlin

[2o6]

I'm surprised they didn't try and develop a FWD layout for the car; a transverse 4cyl would have fit great.



But they likely didn't have the tooling or any sort of FWD transaxle lying around

[Soup DeVille]

Well, it was intended to be FWD too.

Weird things happen when you try to put straight 6 RWD chassis into a fishbowl intended for a front wheel drive Wankel.

[MX793]

AMC didn't have a 4 cylinder in 1975 when the Pacer came out.  They started buying I4s from VW/Audi in the late 70s and then used Iron Dukes from GM into the mid 80s before finally introducing their own I4.

[93JC]

In fact I don't think either of AMC's predecessor companies (Nash and Hudson) had ever made a four-cylinder engine. Maybe the Ramblers of the late 19th and early 20th century had four-bangers, I don't know.

But yeah, they didn't start selling their own four-cylinder engines until the 1984 model year in base-model Eagles and Jeeps.

[Soup DeVille]

Well, the Metropolitan was a four banger.

[shp4man]

Well, the Metropolitan was a four banger.

I think that was an Austin engine.

[93JC]

I think that was an Austin engine.

Yes it was.

[FoMoJo]

I think that was an Austin engine.

The entire car was manufactured by BMC.

[MX793]

In fact I don't think either of AMC's predecessor companies (Nash and Hudson) had ever made a four-cylinder engine. Maybe the Ramblers of the late 19th and early 20th century had four-bangers, I don't know.

But yeah, they didn't start selling their own four-cylinder engines until the 1984 model year in base-model Eagles and Jeeps.

Kaiser Jeep had one when AMC bought Jeep, but I think AMC killed that motor almost immediately after buying the brand (that the motor was over 20 years old at the time didn't help it any).

[Madman]

AMC didn't have a 4 cylinder in 1975 when the Pacer came out.  They started buying I4s from VW/Audi in the late 70s and then used Iron Dukes from GM into the mid 80s before finally introducing their own I4.

Yep, AMC bought 2.0 litre engines from VW/Audi beginning in 1977 and the 2.5 litre Pontiac Iron Duke beginning in 1980.

Funny thing is, AMC announced its partnership with Renault in March 1978, so why didn't they switch to Renault engines?  I can understand if AMC may have been contractually obligated to buy engines from VW/Audi for a certain period of time but, considering the Renault connection, I wonder why AMC felt the need to buy engines from GM.  I mean, its not as if Renault didn't already have a whole slew of four cylinder engines at their disposal which they could have supplied to AMC.  Renault would have probably given AMC a sweetheart deal, too.

It just seems strange to me that AMC had to go begging, hat in hand, to General Motors when they could have just picked up the phone and dialed their buddies in France.

[MX793]

Wouldn't surprise me if the Renault engines didn't meet US emissions.

[cawimmer430]

Yes, they did. Do a google search for "GM rotary engine", you'll find many pictures of the two-rotor engine planned for the Vega and a few of the four-rotor prototype used in the Aerovette concept.

GM cancelled the project for the same reasons everyone except Mazda stopped developing and testing Wankel engines: they made decent power but the emissions out the tailpipe were high and the fuel efficiency was low. When GM cancelled the project AMC had to improvise, and pushed the firewall of the Pacer back to fit their straight-six engines in instead. You can see that just by looking under the hood of one. Look how far under the cowl the engine goes:

It's interesting how different companies planned on using the Wankel engine in the 1960s and 1970s.

Mercedes-Benz planned on using them in a performance / GT car.

GM planned to use them in economy cars.

Citroen used them in the GS family economy car and the M35 testcar.

Mazda used them for everything - family sedan, sports car and GT cars.




Damn, that engine bay looks tight! Theoretically the Pacer should have had good handling with the engine pushed back so far behind the front axle. But I suspect the car was let down by a wobbly and soft suspension, eh?

[cawimmer430]

Yep, AMC bought 2.0 litre engines from VW/Audi beginning in 1977 and the 2.5 litre Pontiac Iron Duke beginning in 1980.

Funny thing is, AMC announced its partnership with Renault in March 1978, so why didn't they switch to Renault engines?  I can understand if AMC may have been contractually obligated to buy engines from VW/Audi for a certain period of time but, considering the Renault connection, I wonder why AMC felt the need to buy engines from GM.  I mean, its not as if Renault didn't already have a whole slew of four cylinder engines at their disposal which they could have supplied to AMC.  Renault would have probably given AMC a sweetheart deal, too.

It just seems strange to me that AMC had to go begging, hat in hand, to General Motors when they could have just picked up the phone and dialed their buddies in France.

And if memory serves me right, at the time Renault was producing FWD cars with longitudinally-mounted engines, so fitting them under the bonnet of a "FWD Pacer" would have been no problem. Around the same time, though, Renault was, if IIRC, also slowly switching over to transversely-mounted motors in their cars.

[MX793]

GM had intended to use rotaries in both economy and performance cars.  There was a rotary Corvette concept.  Also the Monza sport coupe was slated for one.

[Soup DeVille]

The Pacer X was supposedly a very nicely sorted out handler.

[93JC]

Funny thing is, AMC announced its partnership with Renault in March 1978, so why didn't they switch to Renault engines?  I can understand if AMC may have been contractually obligated to buy engines from VW/Audi for a certain period of time but, considering the Renault connection, I wonder why AMC felt the need to buy engines from GM.  I mean, its not as if Renault didn't already have a whole slew of four cylinder engines at their disposal which they could have supplied to AMC.  Renault would have probably given AMC a sweetheart deal, too.

It just seems strange to me that AMC had to go begging, hat in hand, to General Motors when they could have just picked up the phone and dialed their buddies in France.

I bet the deal with GM was far better than they could have had from Renault. I wouldn't presume Renault would have given them a sweetheart deal at all. The experience buying Audi engines was a complete failure; four-cylinder Gremlin sales were putrid in no small part because the four-cylinder engine was so expensive in the first place that it had to be made an option. I'm sure that buying another European engine, even if it was from a corporate partner, would have seemed like a bad idea at the time.

You characterize buying the engines from GM as "begging, hat in hand," but there's no reason to believe that: GM was a huge company that would have amortized the cost of the production of their engines over hundreds of thousands of units every year. I bet they gave AMC a great deal.

[93JC]

The Pacer X was supposedly a very nicely sorted out handler.

The Pacer was one of the first cars in North America with rack and pinion steering. (I think the Pinto and/or Mustang II was first.)

[280Z Turbo]

The Pacer was one of the first cars in North America with rack and pinion steering. (I think the Pinto and/or Mustang II was first.)

In or from North America?

The Datsun 240Z had rack and pinion in 1970

[Eye of the Tiger]

In or from North America?

The Datsun 240Z had rack and pinion in 1970

RX-7 had circulating balls until 1985, so raknpinyn obviously is not so great.

[280Z Turbo]

RX-7 had circulating balls until 1985, so raknpinyn obviously is not so great.

They could have had rack and pinion if they hadn't blown all their money on spinny triangles

[93JC]

In or from North America?

The Datsun 240Z had rack and pinion in 1970

I said "one of the first"...

[Madman]

In or from North America?

The Datsun 240Z had rack and pinion in 1970

The 1959 Triumph Herald had rack-and-pinion steering and BMW used it as far back as the 1930s.

[cawimmer430]

I miss the recirculating-ball steering system in my ex-1985 300SE W126! 

[Eye of the Tiger]

I miss the recirculating-ball steering system in my ex-1985 300SE W126! 

So much H&H™ in those balls; they have recirculated so many times.

[cawimmer430]

So much H&H™ in those balls; they have recirculated so many times.