I'm really confused. Why did the Chrysler 200 fail?

[Raza]

I want to believe It is such a good looking car

[Laconian]

I want to believe It is such a good looking car

There we go, now you're being honest with us about your meaning. Yeah, it's a good looking car, they did a really nice job of improving the looks over the previous generation.

[WookieOnRitalin]

The number one problem is that the only piece of property that garners any reverence in the Chrysler universe is Jeep, Ram, 300, TC/Caravan, and Charger.

No one under the age of 40 has a real positive view of Dodge/Chrysler. It has to be cheaper because no one would spend the same money and get into an Altima, Camry, or Accord. The lower market was swept by Hyundai/Kia as they have put out decent midsizers over the last decade.

The bottom line is that Chrysler is a bad company. The only thing holding it together is Jeep who would likely benefit from different ownership.

[12,000 RPM]

Im wondering if Sergio is seriously considering selling Jeep off and living off that huge golden parachute

On the flipside I feel like dude's pride would force him to go down with the ship

Fiat's purchase of Chrysler was masterful though I wonder if those billions would have been better spent on Fiat itself. Though half of that purchase $$$ came from Chrysler itself

[Madman]

It is clear the Chrysler and Dodge brands are just a drain on the company finances.  At this point, they both need to go.

Jeep is a strong brand globally and is very much the jewel in the crown for FCA.  Fiat is also huge, particularly in Europe and South America and still has potential as a niche brand in North America.  Ram is another cash cow that FCA needs to milk for all it's worth.

The launch of Alfa Romeo into the mainstream premium market is crucial since Alfa will be able to command prices which Dodge or Chrysler never could.  Joining Alfa Romeo and Maserati together at the hip can be beneficial for both companies.

FCA is experiencing the same problem GM did a decade ago; too many brands chasing to few buyers.  It is time to thin the heard.

[93JC]

It is clear the Chrysler and Dodge brands are just a drain on the company finances.  At this point, they both need to go.

Jeep is a strong brand globally and is very much the jewel in the crown for FCA.  Fiat is also huge, particularly in Europe and South America and still has potential as a niche brand in North America.  Ram is another cash cow that FCA needs to milk for all it's worth.

The launch of Alfa Romeo into the mainstream premium market is crucial since Alfa will be able to command prices which Dodge or Chrysler never could.  Joining Alfa Romeo and Maserati together at the hip can be beneficial for both companies.

FCA is experiencing the same problem GM did a decade ago; too many brands chasing to few buyers.  It is time to thin the heard.

The Fiat-Alfa Romeo-Maserati half the company is the one that is the drain on finances. North American Chrysler-Dodge-Ram-Jeep sales account for something ludicrous like 85% of the company's profits. If there is one brand FCA ought to have culled from the herd it's Alfa Romeo. The Giulia—a car that hasn't even launched yet—is already a multi-billion-dollar loss for the company. It'll never be anywhere near popular enough to justify the money spent on it.

Getting rid of Chrysler and Dodge would be cutting off FCA's nose to spite its face. Sergio Marchionne has totally lost the plot and needs to go. His schizophrenic product planning will be the death of the company.

[93JC]

Actually, I take that back: Lancia needs to die first. They still make Ypsilons and sell them in Italy.

[12,000 RPM]

FCA's problem is.... how can I put this. FCA is what happens when enthusiats take the reins of a mainstream company. Instead of developing the boring, high volume mainstream platforms and engines they need, they put their $$$$ into HELLCAT, low volume low cost CF sports cars and Alfa Romeo vaporware. The Compact Wide platform is ancient and overweight. The only modern engines FCA has are the Pentastar V6s, which are about as high tech as a 20 year old Nissan VQ, and those 4 bangers they developed with Mitsubishi/Hyundai almost 10 yrs ago. A LOT of the rest of their engines are port injected cast iron block lumps from the stone age (FIRE, HEMI). For this Alfa deal they NEED state of the art engines. They need a 2.0T with all the bells and whistles. The neutered Hyundai 2.0T won't cut it. But I don't think they have the resources to develop something to rival the likes of BMW's N20 from scratch and on their own. That's what the hold up is.

Still though, I like the 200. OK, it's overweight. OK, it has a cramped backseat. OK, it's engines are mediocre. But it has a lot going for it that its competition doesn't. I don't think I would ever buy something from this segment, but if I had to and couldn't get a 6MT Accord Sport I would at least give the 200 V6 a look. But the whole company is in a state of crisis which sadly is business as usual.

[MrH]

The Fiat-Alfa Romeo-Maserati half the company is the one that is the drain on finances. North American Chrysler-Dodge-Ram-Jeep sales account for something ludicrous like 85% of the company's profits. If there is one brand FCA ought to have culled from the herd it's Alfa Romeo. The Giulia—a car that hasn't even launched yet—is already a multi-billion-dollar loss for the company. It'll never be anywhere near popular enough to justify the money spent on it.

Getting rid of Chrysler and Dodge would be cutting off FCA's nose to spite its face. Sergio Marchionne has totally lost the plot and needs to go. His schizophrenic product planning will be the death of the company.

Big +1

I showed all sorts of data to FCA about how awful their planning numbers were.  Director level just told me that Sergio doesn't care.  He just says what he wants, regardless of the limitations, and leaves the rest of the org to scramble to try to make it happen.

[12,000 RPM]

Sergio makes Piech look like Bob Lutz

[Madman]

The Fiat-Alfa Romeo-Maserati half the company is the one that is the drain on finances. If there is one brand FCA ought to have culled from the herd it's Alfa Romeo. The Giulia—a car that hasn't even launched yet—is already a multi-billion-dollar loss for the company. It'll never be anywhere near popular enough to justify the money spent on it.

Getting rid of Chrysler and Dodge would be cutting off FCA's nose to spite its face. Sergio Marchionne has totally lost the plot and needs to go. His schizophrenic product planning will be the death of the company.

Damn spellcheck!

Anyway, Chrysler only has three car models: 200, 300 and Pacifica.  Dodge also has just three car models: Dart, Charger and Challenger.  Once the slow selling Dart and 200 are culled, Chrysler and Dodge will have just two models each.  Three of those four cars are derived from an ancient platform developed in the 1990s and, quite frankly, are past their sell-by date.  The fourth model, the Pacifica, is the latest entry in the rapidly dying minivan market.  Don't get me wrong, I like minivans.  Hell, I even own a minivan!  But, if I ran a car company, that last thing I would invest money and resources into is a new minivan.  The buying public have already spoken.  They want SUVs and crossovers even though, for most people, they make absolutely no sense.  However, if you want to survive, you need to give people what they want.

So, it's obvious both Chrysler and Dodge desperately need new product, yesterday.  Problem is the Chrysler and Dodge brands are so damaged in the minds of the consumer that the only way they can sell cars is by discounting the shit out of them and piling on the rebates.  That, my friend, is a one-way ticket to nowhere!  It's exactly how pre-bankruptcy GM went off the rails and needed Gub'mint help to get back on their feet.

So, lets say you're in charge of FCA.  What do you do?  Do you invest money in brands that can only sell cars at fire sale prices?  Or do you invest money in brands that can potentially charge premium prices for their wares?  Who's to say Alfa can't borrow a few pages from the Lexus playbook?  Of course, they have to keep those cars away from the shitty dealers they have now.  Nothing will torpedo Alfa faster than having a polyester jacket-wearing Dodge/Chrysler salesman trying to convert BMW and Mercedes customers into a new Alfa Romeo.

Years ago, I advocated making Dodge the all-truck brand and branding all the cars as Chryslers.  Now that Ram has been split off from Dodge, I really see no way forward for Dodge.  And, unless Chrysler can get their hands on some sellable product, I really don't see any way Chrysler can make it, either.  Jeep and Ram are where the money is made.  I think, if handled right, Alfa and Maserati could be money-makers, too.  Let's hope FCA doesn't screw the pooch on that one!

[12,000 RPM]

I am telling you... FCA is going to juice the hell out of Jeep and prompt a firesale once a) the next recession hits or b) gas spikes and torpedoes HELLCATs.

[93JC]

Anyway, Chrysler only has three car models: 200, 300 and Pacifica.  Dodge also has just three car models: Dart, Charger and Challenger.  Once the slow selling Dart and 200 are culled, Chrysler and Dodge will have just two models each.  Three of those four cars are derived from an ancient platform developed in the 1990s and, quite frankly, are past their sell-by date.

Okay, let's just get a few things straight: the "slow-selling" Chrysler 200 has more annual sales in the US, alone, than the entire Alfa Romeo brand, worldwide.

Really, let's get this straight, dude: go look up FCA's 2015 reports. They sold 56,800 Alfa Romeos in Europe, and of those they sold 30,500 in Italy. Outside of Italy they have a very, very meagre market share. Even in Italy they have a crappy market share, they sell more Lancia Ypsilons in Italy than they do Alfa Romeos.

They sold 177,889 Chrysler 200s in the US. They sold over 80,000 Darts.

So, lets say you're in charge of FCA.  What do you do?  Do you invest money in brands that can only sell cars at fire sale prices?  Or do you invest money in brands that can potentially charge premium prices for their wares?  Who's to say Alfa can't borrow a few pages from the Lexus playbook?

If I'm on the FCA board I try to get Sergio removed ASAP.

If you mean if I had Sergio's job, I would have stuck by the Dart and 200 and we'd have already been working on the next generation cars for years. I would have scaled Lancia back to the one model in Italy long ago, and I wouldn't dedicate any money toward a replacement. I would not be spending the $7B+ they've spent on the Giulia, because it's sucking resources away from lower margin but far, far, far and away higher-overall-profit vehicles.

I would have made the 200 a Dodge product. I would have had the company working on a Journey replacement years ago; the Journey is in a bread-and-butter market segment that they've let languish for far too long. I would not have split 'Ram' from Dodge. I would have created a mid-size Chrysler SUV (crossover), something akin to a Ford Explorer but 'nicer'.

You talk about Fiat being huge in Europe and Latin America but these markets are hurting badly! Do you know how much profit the company makes in these markets? They made €213 million in Europe and lost €87 million in Latin America. Do you know how much they made in North America?








































FOUR-AND-A-HALF-BILLION EUROS.

Ninety-two percent of the company's profits are from the NAFTA region. So don't spew a bunch of BS about these cars being "a drain on the company's finances". Get real pal, they're making money!

[12,000 RPM]

Lol. That was refreshing

[GoCougs]

What a shame. But really, in general, Chrysler has always lagged GM and Ford, and in cars in particular. Sure, Chrysler had its moments - from the rebirth of the 300C/Charger/Challenger, to the "cab forward" stuff of the '90s, to the K-Car of the '80s, to the Fuselage cars of the '70s, to the B-body muscle cars and the Magnum and second gen Hemi motors of the '60s, even back to the '50s with the C-300 and intro of the first gen Hemi. Sadly, curiosities and short wins don't keep an automaker afloat - it's the Impalas and Torinos and Tauruses and Malibus and Caprices, etc., etc., year after year. Chrysler had some wins here too but not enough and not long for enough.

[MrH]

Lol. That was refreshing

  Yeah it was

[Madman]

Yes, I am very aware the bulk of FCA's profits are made in North America.  Jeep and Ram are the cash cows keeping the whole company afloat.

The crucial mistake Sergio made was announcing the Dart and 200 will not be replaced, effectively killing the cars in the eyes of the public.  Nevermind that dealers still need to keep selling Darts and 200s for the next few years.  it was a boneheaded move and a totally unnecessary one.

And yes, I am also aware Alfa Romeo sales are currently in the toilet, too.  That's what happens when you only have three cars, one of which is a low-volume niche model and the other two are aging products nearing the end of their useful lives.  It is indeed shameful how this once iconic brand has been neglected.  But try not to think of Alfa as it is today.  Instead, think of what it can be.  There is tremendous equity in the Alfa Romeo name.  Yes, rebuilding the brand will be a long, uphill slog, but the long-term payoff has the potential to be enormous.  This isn't the first premium marque to make a comeback.  Post-war BMW was nearly insolvent.  VW spent decades transforming Audi into a credible player in the premium segment.  Toyota created Lexus from thin air.  If managed properly, Alfa has every chance to reestablish itself as a bona fide aspirational brand.

I also agree splitting Ram from Dodge was another mistake but, at least this one can be corrected fairly easily.  Everyone still calls it the Dodge Ram anyway, so it's not hard to imagine FCA reuniting Ram with Dodge.  You also mentioned Lancia which, I'm sad to say is a lost cause.  There is simply no room for both Lancia and Alfa under the FCA umbrella.  Rebulidng one premium brand is difficult enough.  Rebuilding TWO premium brands is simply too much for any one company to handle, especially one with FCA's limited resources.  Besides, decades of building pricey versions of Fiats have killed any allure Lancia once had.

Chrysler can possibly be salvaged but it will take a demonstrable willingness to stand behind the brand and the product.  The 200 isn't a bad car, but it needed to be better and I think it can be made better.  But, whatever happens, don't write off FCA just yet.

[280Z Turbo]

I wonder how many jobs could be saved if Sergio just fucked off and died?

Isn't it sad that the relatively tiny island nation of Japan has Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Mazda, and Mitsubishi while we only have 3 (2.5?) automakers?

[12,000 RPM]

I wonder how many jobs could be saved if Sergio just fucked off and died?

Isn't it sad that the relatively tiny island nation of Japan has Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Mazda, and Mitsubishi while we only have 3 (2.5?) automakers?

That Japanese drive + obsession is what is destroying the country. If things keep going as is, in 100 years Japan won't exist.

Plus those 3 domestic brands outsell all those Japanese brands as well as the Koreans, at least in the US. I don't know if we will see Mazda or Mitsubishi in the next 10 yrs either.

[12,000 RPM]

But try not to think of Alfa as it is today.  Instead, think of what it can be.  There is tremendous equity in the Alfa Romeo name.  Yes, rebuilding the brand will be a long, uphill slog, but the long-term payoff has the potential to be enormous.  This isn't the first premium marque to make a comeback.  Post-war BMW was nearly insolvent.  VW spent decades transforming Audi into a credible player in the premium segment.  Toyota created Lexus from thin air.  If managed properly, Alfa has every chance to reestablish itself as a bona fide aspirational brand.

Heres the thing though. Timing is everything. Lets focus on the US market since we know it and it's pretty much the only one doing anything. When MB/BMW got a foothold here, there was literally no luxury alternative worth a damn. The domestic offerings were TERRIBLE. Audi caught MB and BMW kind of sleeping too. All those years with no AWD option? The A4 looked really good in and out as well. Lexus caught MB & BMW with their pants down as well. The LS400 was 1-2 generations ahead of whatever MB/BMW were selling at the time.

Compare that to Alfa's situation now.... we nitpick over shit like infotainment and turbos but the fact of the matter is the Germans have never had more competitive lineups. Seriously, what can Alfa do to curbstomp the 3 series? Because that's what it will take. And please don't feed me that "more dynamics!" bullshit. We saw how that went for the ATS. And that's just them. Then you have Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, Acura and Volvo. What's gonna make anyone looking at a 3/C/A4/IS/Q50 take a gamble on an Alfa? Styling? The top seller in the class is the boring ass 3. Tech? UConnect is good but that's not enough. Theres no case for it.

And you talk about building the brand.... how many billions of $$$$s will FCA suck up from the taxpayers of the US and Italy to prop this up? Why not just accept the loss and make the responsible business decision?

Sergio has painted himself into a corner with this litany of terrible decisions. The billions he is spending  on Alfa should be spent on a new Compact Wide platform in line with the competition (as far as weight goes) and some mainstream engines. Then Dodge/Fiat/Chrysler would have a fighting chance. As is FCA is FUCKED.

[ifcar]

I wonder how many jobs could be saved if Sergio just fucked off and died?

Isn't it sad that the relatively tiny island nation of Japan has Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Mazda, and Mitsubishi while we only have 3 (2.5?) automakers?

Probably because of the low sales of any import.

Compare that to Alfa's situation now.... we nitpick over shit like infotainment and turbos but the fact of the matter is the Germans have never had more competitive lineups. Seriously, what can Alfa do to curbstomp the 3 series? Because that's what it will take. And please don't feed me that "more dynamics!" bullshit. We saw how that went for the ATS.

The ATS is also a badly flawed car with poor interior space, the horrid CUE, dull styling, and mediocre engines.

[280Z Turbo]

That Japanese drive + obsession is what is destroying the country. If things keep going as is, in 100 years Japan won't exist.

Plus those 3 domestic brands outsell all those Japanese brands as well as the Koreans, at least in the US. I don't know if we will see Mazda or Mitsubishi in the next 10 yrs either.

Mitsubishi's automotive business can go die for all I care. The only significant cars they've produced are the DSM (which is dead) and the Evo (is that thing still on sale?).

They would not be missed. Mitsubishi still has a lot of other businesses outside of automotive. I like their PLCs.

[12,000 RPM]

Mitsubishi's automotive business can go die for all I care. The only significant cars they've produced are the DSM (which is dead) and the Evo (is that thing still on sale?).

They would not be missed. Mitsubishi still has a lot of other businesses outside of automotive. I like their PLCs.

You would not miss them, but all their bad credit subprime buyers would. They get poor people into new cars with warranties, which is worth something.

[Madman]

You would not miss them, but all their bad credit subprime buyers would. They get poor people into new cars with warranties, which is worth something.

Kia holds a bug chunk of that demographic.

Their cars have improved massively in recent years and they'll still finance anyone who's breathing.

[2o6]

The Japanese market is effectively closed to outside competition. Also, Japanese nationalism means they buy Japanese no matter what.


Also, they've got odd size taxes that is basically not cost effective for manufacturers who aren't Japanese to try and compete with.



Many of world compact cars are too wide for Japanese regulations; they'd get put in a class where they'd be uncompetitive

[12,000 RPM]

Someone at my job got a new Malibu 2.0T. I still prefer the looks of the 200, but I have to admit, the new 'Bu is basically everything the 200 should have been. If they can fix the C/D pillar treatment that will pretty much be it.

[Madman]

Someone at my job got a new Malibu 2.0T. I still prefer the looks of the 200, but I have to admit, the new 'Bu is basically everything the 200 should have been. If they can fix the C/D pillar treatment that will pretty much be it.

Maybe Chrysler can stretch the 200 by a few inches in between the B and C pillar like they do on those Chinese market special edition sedans?

That would fix the biggest complaint concerning the 200, although I'm guessing it's probably too expensive to do so.

[ifcar]

Maybe Chrysler can stretch the 200 by a few inches in between the B and C pillar like they do on those Chinese market special edition sedans?

That would fix the biggest complaint concerning the 200, although I'm guessing it's probably too expensive to do so.

It's already among the longer cars in its class, it's already a stretched version of a small car, and extra length wouldn't fix the headroom issue anyway.

Besides, interior space isn't necessarily the biggest complaint about the 200 -- just the most obvious. It was reported that some Daimler bigshot hit his head getting out of the backseat of the 2001-06 Sebring, and his big requirement was that the 2007 model have more headroom. This transformed the Sebring from a mediocre but somewhat stylish car with limited rear seat space into a mediocre ugly blobby thing with a roomier rear seat. Let's not encourage that path this time around.

[MrH]

I'm checking my RSS reader, and see TTAC puts out a review on this car.  Skim read it, and they're actually saying it's not that bad.  I think, you know, Jack Baruth has officially lost it.

I scroll down to the comments and see Sporty then remember this thread   You and Jack Baruth are the only two that like this car.

[12,000 RPM]

A lot of the people hating on it haven't even driven it though. I haven't either but I'm at least giving it the benefit of the doubt.