VW will buy back U.S. Diesels

[Raza]

I take it that you're going for the buyback, then.

[Rich]

Please tell me you're going to take the $5k and buyback, and get another Aveo.

HAHAHA

Sonic

Upgrayyyed

[Soup DeVille]

Well, usable but not compliant with the law. It's not like the minimum standards for a car to be sold in the U.S. are "well, it runs, doesn't it?"

Also, we don't know that the cars are being scrapped; if there is a cost-effective fix, VW can do the fix and resell them.

Is the cost effective fix "ship to Europe?"

[AutobahnSHO]

Is the cost effective fix "ship to Europe?"

No, Africa or Asia....

[Tave]

I take it that you're going for the buyback, then.

Not sure yet. I love my car but will it be the same after the fix?

Also the buyback might just make more financial sense. I'll have to wait and see on the terms, but I might be able to buy back in on a cheaper ride, lower the amount of money left on my note, and still have cash left over.

HAHAHA

Sonic

Upgrayyyed

If I stay with VW, I'm thinking Golf wagon. Maybe GTI if I'm feeling frisky and irresponsible.

Leaning towards Mazda if I go off-brand.

[Raza]

Not sure yet. I love my car but will it be the same after the fix?

Also the buyback might just make more financial sense. I'll have to wait and see on the terms, but I might be able to buy back in on a cheaper ride, lower the amount of money left on my note, and still have cash left over.



If I stay with VW, I'm thinking Golf wagon. Maybe GTI if I'm feeling frisky and irresponsible.

Leaning towards Mazda if I go off-brand.

GTI!

Or Golf R!

[Rich]

One of my friends has a Jetta TDI and really likes hers.  I think it's a 2012ish. 

I think the smart move is to take the Aug 2015 + whatever extra cash and run.  If you reallyyyyy like them just buy another

[Madman]

No, Africa or Asia....

Yep.  Africa, parts of Asia or Latin America.  Maybe Russia.  Anyplace where emissions aren't considered a big deal and/or where local authorities are easily bribed.

I'm no lawyer but one could certainly argue VW did "pass" the test required by law, right?  Technically, VW did comply with the letter of the law, if not necessarily the spirit of the law.  Sure, the testing regimen is flawed, but that's hardly VW"s fault.  If you ask me, this is starting to look more like a witch-hunt.

[MrH]

But everyone playing by the tax code laws are criminals if they do anything to limit their tax exposure?

[MX793]

Yep.  Africa, parts of Asia or Latin America.  Maybe Russia.  Anyplace where emissions aren't considered a big deal and/or where local authorities are easily bribed.

I'm no lawyer but one could certainly argue VW did "pass" the test required by law, right?  Technically, VW did comply with the letter of the law, if not necessarily the spirit of the law.  Sure, the testing regimen is flawed, but that's hardly VW"s fault.  If you ask me, this is starting to look more like a witch-hunt.

The law expressly forbids the use of "defeat devices", including ECM software that alters engine/fuel management for the test.  So no, they did not legally pass the emissions test by any measure or interpretation of the law.

[Madman]

The law expressly forbids the use of "defeat devices", including ECM software that alters engine/fuel management for the test.  So no, they did not legally pass the emissions test by any measure or interpretation of the law.

In that case, then the punishment is justified.

One more question.  In the absence of illegal defeat software, if the car produced emission levels in excess of legal requirements outside the parameters of the test, is that car still legal?

[SJ_GTI]

One more question.  In the absence of illegal defeat software, if the car produced emission levels in excess of legal requirements outside the parameters of the test, is that car still legal?

Pretty much all cars perform differently in the lab. VW crossed the line by making the engine emissions system perform almost completely different (on versus off, basically) and was entirely designed to detect if it was being tested or not.

You might be able to slide something pass the test if it was more generalized. I think most automakers "build to the test" and then don't sweat the details outside the test parameters...but I don't think you will find another automaker that completely turns off their emissions controls when not in test mode. For VW it got so extreme that if steering input was detected it would go to normal mode, so pretty much anyone driving the car outside of a lab would not get the performance they got in the lab.

Keep in  mind this situation was discovered by an independent lab who was testing a bunch of cars. The VW was the only one whose emissions were so outlandish. IIRC the other cars had emissions slightly higher than lab tests, but nothing crazy.

[AutobahnSHO]

sneaky germans....   

[93JC]

Pretty much all cars perform differently in the lab. VW crossed the line by making the engine emissions system perform almost completely different (on versus off, basically) and was entirely designed to detect if it was being tested or not.

You might be able to slide something pass the test if it was more generalized. I think most automakers "build to the test" and then don't sweat the details outside the test parameters...but I don't think you will find another automaker that completely turns off their emissions controls when not in test mode. For VW it got so extreme that if steering input was detected it would go to normal mode, so pretty much anyone driving the car outside of a lab would not get the performance they got in the lab.

No car is going to perform exactly as it does in the test except during the test cycle. There had been a lot of rumblings out of Europe before and after this scandal erupted about how pretty much nobody's diesels were meeting the emissions targets when driven out and about in the real world. Is that good? No, but it's more of an indictment of the test cycle itself being unable to sufficiently simulate real-world driving.

Everybody designed their cars to pass the test. Some perform fairly well in real-world driving too; some don't. The difference is what VW did was straight-up cheating: their cars don't meet the standards in the real world and they don't meet them in the lab without the aid of the supplementary programming that modifies the engine's behaviour when it's undergoing testing.

We'd hear rumours about Honda, Subaru, Mazda, and others bringing diesels to North America and none of them did because when they tried their best to make the cars pass the test without SCR and DEF (to compete on price with the VW products without such technologies) they couldn't. Ask a VW fan and they'd tell you VW was able to do it because of their masterful "German engineering" and decades' experience making diesels. turns out they couldn't do it either, so instead of capitulating (like GM did when they started selling diesel Cruzes here, complete with exhaust aftertreatment) they cheated.

[MrH]

Ok, so what happens if I bought a used VW diesel that's affected by the whole scandal today?  Like I went out and bought a used 2009 Jetta TDI?  Would I be eligible for the buy back?  What about the $5k?

[veeman]

The judge has given VW until June 21st to put forth the exact details of the buyback.  I think if you bought a VW tdi from a private party or non-VW dealer after dieselgate started (the only way you could have), you would be taking a chance that you might not qualify.  When I applied for my gift cards worth $1000, I had to input my VIN number to see whether my car would qualify. 

[AutobahnSHO]

Nissan accused of diesel cheating too

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36299555

[Payman]

Holee shit...


Volkswagen has been ordered to buy back any diesel 2.0-liter four-cylinder car in the United States as part of its unprecedented $14.7 billion settlement with federal regulators, U.S. Justice Department officials said this morning.

The buyback order will include some 482,000 diesel Volkswagen and Audi cars sold between 2009 and 2015, officials said.

Owners will have the choice between selling their car back to VW, or getting the cars fixed at no cost. Owners with leases can choose to have their leases terminated at no cost. That fix has not been announced yet.

No matter what owners decide to do, they will also receive cash compensation from VW. Most owners will get between $5,100 and up to $10,000, officials said.

"By duping the regulators VW turned half a million American drivers into unwitting accomplices in an unprecedented assault on our environment," Deputy U.S. Attorney General Sally Q. Yates said in a press conference.

The company has been ordered to set aside $10.03 billion for buybacks; $2 billion to invest in projects "that will encourage americans to expand use of zero emission vehicles in the future", Yates said; and $2.7 billion to an environmental trust that will remedy NOx emissions from TDI cars.

The settlement is part of the largest monetary obligation in the history of Clean Air Act, Yates said.

Yates said that this settlement is only the beginning, and does not cover the ongoing criminal investigation or penalties related to the 3.0-liter diesel V6 engine.

Reuters reports that a separate settlement worth at least $600 million will also be announced later with states. Buybacks are expected to begin in October, with fixes rolled out by November.

In addition:

VW cannot resell or export the vehicles bought back unless the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency approves a fix, the documents said. Volkswagen must repair or buy back 85 percent of the 475,000 vehicles by June 2019 or face penalties of $100 million for every percentage point it falls below that figure.

Last year Volkswagen admitted to cheating NOx emissions on nearly half a million diesel cars in the U.S. over almost a decade, then conceded to cheating emissions with diesel cars in most other markets. The automaker has since been besieged by plummeting sales, criminal investigations, lawsuits and resignations and firings at the executive level.

The cars affected include the diesel Volkswagen Golf, Jetta, Passat, Jetta Sportwagen, Beetle and Audi A3.

Volkswagen officials said the following in a statement:

"We take our commitment to make things right very seriously and believe these agreements are a significant step forward," said Matthias Müller, Chief Executive Officer of Volkswagen AG. "We appreciate the constructive engagement of all the parties, and are very grateful to our customers for their continued patience as the settlement approval process moves ahead. We know that we still have a great deal of work to do to earn back the trust of the American people. We are focused on resolving the outstanding issues and building a better company that can shape the future of integrated, sustainable mobility for our customers."

More on this as we get it.

[MrH]

I'm still confused.  What happens to people who buy used tdi cars now?

I'm so tempted to pick up the cheapest diesel golf or jetta I can find

[2o6]

I feel like customer brand loyalty on these TDI models is a bit higher than an average Corolla or Civic buyer. I'm honestly not sure WTF is going to happen.

[MrH]

I found an '09 Jetta TDI for $6900.  If I could negotiate down to $5500.  Sounds like VW will buy back at pre dieselgate values (so maybe $8k-$10k?), plus $5k-$10k?

Seems like an easy way to make a buck.

[2o6]

I found an '09 Jetta TDI for $6900.  If I could negotiate down to $5500.  Sounds like VW will buy back at pre dieselgate values (so maybe $8k-$10k?), plus $5k-$10k?

Seems like an easy way to make a buck.

Oh come on, we both know that this isn't how it's going to work.

[Payman]

Oh come on, we both know that this isn't how it's going to work.

I don't see anything yet that says it wouldn't.

[MrH]

Worst case, VW buys it back for what you paid, right?  I tie up $5500 for a few months.

[shp4man]

I get the feeling that the South of the Border used car market will be getting a bunch of diesel VW's in the near future. 

[MrH]

Oooooo. Found all the legal documents that out lines exactly how this will work. There's a mileage table that shows how much you lose off the buyback and everything. I'm surprised not a single media source has broken this down yet. 

[12,000 RPM]

They are so fucked man JFC..... net income was only ~11B Euro last year AND Brexit just happened

Buckle your seat belts folks, we're in for another recession!!!!

[MexicoCityM3]

I get the feeling that the South of the Border used car market will be getting a bunch of diesel VW's in the near future. 

No. Very unlikely. Diesel isn't popular here at all and our government (we do have one) is currently embroiled in its own air pollution problems. New stricter standards are coming online this Friday.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-27/daimler-fights-tighter-mexican-emission-controls-as-smog-worsens

[MexicoCityM3]

They are so fucked man JFC..... net income was only ~11B Euro last year AND Brexit just happened

Buckle your seat belts folks, we're in for another recession!!!!

Because of VW? If anything this is a net flow of $15B to the US economy. Like a tax break for VW owners.

[MrH]

I'm totally eligible if I buy now.  I'm seriously considering this.  Time to watch craigslist like a hawk.