Catman: Help Desparately Needed!

[sparkplug]

I was on the the NH Division of Motor Vehicles website. One page 85 of their operators manual it says the driver must be 21 to transport alcoholic beverages  and you may not be able to drive for 60 days.

It's page 85 on the manual but page 89 in Adobe Reader.

Here is the link:

NH operators manual

Took me forever to download but hey, I was curious. Hope you have broadband.

Look like hopefully you won't become somebody's manwife.

:D        

[ciciusss]

Thanks, Catman.? I can only hope that they toss mine, but I seriously doubt it.? I've got to show up for court, and once they have me I don't think they'll want to lose the fine money by letting it go.? Do you think it would be worth putting up a defense along the lines of "It's not my beer, I wasn't driving, not my car, etc."? 'Course, I don't think I'd do that if I can't get my friends off either, I don't want to hang them out to dry.

J86,

I just wanted to follow up on a few things that Catman said. First as for reading you your rights. Three questions have to be answered when considering Miranda.

1) Was he a law enforcement officer or agent?
2) Was he interviewing or conducting an interrogation?
3) Were you in custody?

If one of these three are missing, it is not a Miranda issue. The questioning about the beer in the car was prior to custody. The trooper had no reason to arrest any of you prior to questioning (although he probably had reasonable suspicion, which in itself does not meet the Miranda threshhold). He developed probable cause during the questioning when you answered in the affirmative that you guys had been drinking beer. Once he had sufficient PC to conduct an arrest, it is at that point if he is going to continue questioning you that Miranda becomes an issue. So if I read your post right, the statements you made to the trooper will most likely stand.

As for you having to be released to your parents, unless NH has some funky law that I am not aware of, you should have been able to bond out on your own since you are over 18 years of age.

Finally, don't sweat this. Catman is correct in that the charges against you will probably be tossed. At worst you will receive a fine and have a misdemeanor on your record and it is a misdemeanor that is not that big of a deal and the grand scheme of things.

BTW, things have gotten really ugly on that Autoweek thread. :angry:

Catman,

I went over there the other day and saw that it had. Atomic and Catman vs Bigsalmon and ssalarn (sp?). Sounds like it could pass for a wrestling match I'll be honest, I don't know where salmon comes up with some of those posts. :blink:  By the way Merry Christmas.   Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

[BRealistic]

I just talked to a Nahua NH guy and he referenced a court case in which some teens were relieved of their beer buy police and sent on their way.  Later that night they aquired more beer, crashed and were killed.  So, now case law practically dictates arrest in these situations and they've taken much of the officer discretion away.  He said it was State v. Kingston but I couldn't find it so he might be off.  As for the bail situation he told me that it sounded right.

That was the first thing I thought of- something had happened that gave the police bad press, and the laws were changed in an over reactive way to please the populous.


It is still bs though.

[Catman]

I just talked to a Nahua NH guy and he referenced a court case in which some teens were relieved of their beer buy police and sent on their way.  Later that night they aquired more beer, crashed and were killed.  So, now case law practically dictates arrest in these situations and they've taken much of the officer discretion away.  He said it was State v. Kingston but I couldn't find it so he might be off.  As for the bail situation he told me that it sounded right.

That was the first thing I thought of- something had happened that gave the police bad press, and the laws were changed in an over reactive way to please the populous.


It is still bs though.

I call them "feel good" laws.  One of our detectives here used to work in Keene NH and another was a NH Trooper (much better pay here is you were wondering).  The guy who worked in Keene summed it up that they arrest for everything in NH!  You can even arrest someone for speeding there. :o  

[Catman]

Thanks, Catman.  I can only hope that they toss mine, but I seriously doubt it.  I've got to show up for court, and once they have me I don't think they'll want to lose the fine money by letting it go.  Do you think it would be worth putting up a defense along the lines of "It's not my beer, I wasn't driving, not my car, etc."  'Course, I don't think I'd do that if I can't get my friends off either, I don't want to hang them out to dry.

J86,

I just wanted to follow up on a few things that Catman said. First as for reading you your rights. Three questions have to be answered when considering Miranda.

1) Was he a law enforcement officer or agent?
2) Was he interviewing or conducting an interrogation?
3) Were you in custody?

If one of these three are missing, it is not a Miranda issue. The questioning about the beer in the car was prior to custody. The trooper had no reason to arrest any of you prior to questioning (although he probably had reasonable suspicion, which in itself does not meet the Miranda threshhold). He developed probable cause during the questioning when you answered in the affirmative that you guys had been drinking beer. Once he had sufficient PC to conduct an arrest, it is at that point if he is going to continue questioning you that Miranda becomes an issue. So if I read your post right, the statements you made to the trooper will most likely stand.

As for you having to be released to your parents, unless NH has some funky law that I am not aware of, you should have been able to bond out on your own since you are over 18 years of age.

Finally, don't sweat this. Catman is correct in that the charges against you will probably be tossed. At worst you will receive a fine and have a misdemeanor on your record and it is a misdemeanor that is not that big of a deal and the grand scheme of things.

BTW, things have gotten really ugly on that Autoweek thread. :angry:

Catman,

I went over there the other day and saw that it had. Atomic and Catman vs Bigsalmon and ssalarn (sp?). Sounds like it could pass for a wrestling match I'll be honest, I don't know where salmon comes up with some of those posts. :blink:  By the way Merry Christmas.   Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

I think they're the same guy.

[BRealistic]

I just talked to a Nahua NH guy and he referenced a court case in which some teens were relieved of their beer buy police and sent on their way.  Later that night they aquired more beer, crashed and were killed.  So, now case law practically dictates arrest in these situations and they've taken much of the officer discretion away.  He said it was State v. Kingston but I couldn't find it so he might be off.  As for the bail situation he told me that it sounded right.

That was the first thing I thought of- something had happened that gave the police bad press, and the laws were changed in an over reactive way to please the populous.


It is still bs though.

I call them "feel good" laws.  One of our detectives here used to work in Keene NH and another was a NH Trooper (much better pay here is you were wondering).  The guy who worked in Keene summed it up that they arrest for everything in NH!  You can even arrest someone for speeding there. :o

They arrest for everything, or they can arrest for everything?

Laws are only as good as they are enforced. If the police officer still has the choice of who to arrest and who not to, then there is a double standard depending on who you are and who you know. These laws are supposed to removes those double standards, but it seems like it just makes them more exaggerated.

[Catman]

I just talked to a Nahua NH guy and he referenced a court case in which some teens were relieved of their beer buy police and sent on their way.  Later that night they aquired more beer, crashed and were killed.  So, now case law practically dictates arrest in these situations and they've taken much of the officer discretion away.  He said it was State v. Kingston but I couldn't find it so he might be off.  As for the bail situation he told me that it sounded right.

That was the first thing I thought of- something had happened that gave the police bad press, and the laws were changed in an over reactive way to please the populous.


It is still bs though.

I call them "feel good" laws.  One of our detectives here used to work in Keene NH and another was a NH Trooper (much better pay here is you were wondering).  The guy who worked in Keene summed it up that they arrest for everything in NH!  You can even arrest someone for speeding there. :o

They arrest for everything, or they can arrest for everything?

Laws are only as good as they are enforced. If the police officer still has the choice of who to arrest and who not to, then there is a double standard depending on who you are and who you know. These laws are supposed to removes those double standards, but it seems like it just makes them more exaggerated.

Pretty much both in a slightly exaggerated way.

The arrest powers in NH are a little broader than their neighboring states.  I will admit to arresting teens for transporting alcohol.  I had no issue at all doing it because they were repeat offenders that I'd already given a freeby to.  Second time it's all on them.  

[dazzleman]

This case is probably an outgrowth of our society's refusal to accept personal responsibility for anything.

In the previous case mentioned, the underaged people who were in possession of the beer were released and later crashed their car.  The police were probably blamed for that -- "they really should have held them" or "it was their responsibility to detain them until they were sure they weren't going to drink" blah blah blah.

So in order to avoid that, they made the arrest policy tighter, and now it's ridiculous.  Heaven forbid people who drink and drive be held responsible for their own decisions.  No, it's the fault of the bartender, the person who hosted the party they were at, or the police who didn't hold their hand for the rest of the evening or longer.

There was recently a case in Connecticut in which a town was sued because one of their off-duty police officers was in the same bar with four young men who were very drunk.  The officer gave them his PBA card with a note asking whoever may pull them over to go easy on them.  Later, they drove off drunk and killed themselves.  I admit this officer showed horrendous judgment, but the town has been found responsible for their deaths.  I think it's absurd, because whatever that off-duty officer did or didn't do, they made the decision to get into the car completely plastered and drive.

So J86, I think you can probably thank the "blame everybody but myself for the consequences of my actions" crowd for the fact that you got arrested for this trifling offense rather than just given some type of mail-in fine.

[sparkplug]

The important thing is you learned that in order not be illegal you must be 21 to obtain beer, transport, and consume beer in NH. Otherwise you may become someone's manwife. And then you got problems. Preparation H. Petroleum Jelly. Bean burrito. :blink:

By the way what's that about the autoweek thread?

[mazda6er]

The important thing is you learned that in order not be illegal you must be 21 to obtain beer, transport, and consume beer in NH. Otherwise you may become someone's manwife. And then you got problems. Preparation H. Petroleum Jelly. Bean burrito. :blink:

By the way what's that about the autoweek thread?

Jesus man, lay off the chronic.

[sparkplug]

mazda6er     Posted on Dec 23 2005, 12:00 AM
     
QUOTE (sparkplug @ Dec 22 2005, 11:58 PM)
The important thing is you learned that in order not be illegal you must be 21 to obtain beer, transport, and consume beer in NH. Otherwise you may become someone's manwife. And then you got problems. Preparation H. Petroleum Jelly. Bean burrito. blink.gif

By the way what's that about the autoweek thread?

Jesus man, lay off the chronic.

??? What you mean? Clarification requested.

[mazda6er]

I'm just kidding with you. Your post was a little wacky is all. btw, the "quote" button is in the top right corner of each post. Not sure if you saw that yet or not. :)

[mazda6er]

I've got to say though, j86, you should've flashed the cat signal. Catman would've been here way quicker if he knew a citizen was in need.

[Lazerous]

I've got to say though, j86, you should've flashed the cat signal. Catman would've been here way quicker if he knew a citizen was in need.

lol, thats hilarious, Catman you should put that in your sig, it would be so funny :P

[Speed_Racer]

I had a coworker get arrested and his license suspended for something like this.

He had a little to drink (something on an airplane) and was driving home slower than the rest of traffic. A cop pulled him over (like a lion on a wounded gazelle), asked him if he had been drinking, which he honeslty replied "Yes." Then, the cop asked to search the car, found an empty, tiny bottle of wine from the last time he took his glass to the recycling center. And they booked him on that. Kinda sad, because he was a good guy caught in a bad situation.

That was over a month ago, and I still think he can't drive anywhere.

[Catman]

I've got to say though, j86, you should've flashed the cat signal. Catman would've been here way quicker if he knew a citizen was in need.

lol, thats hilarious, Catman you should put that in your sig, it would be so funny :P

That's pretty good.  

[crv16]

J86,

In my younger and dumber days, about 15 years ago, I got pulled over (in NH) for a headlight burned out.  Had an open container in the car.  Didn't get arrested or anything, but got a summons to appear in court for a violation of the open container law.

I hired a lawyer.  Go to court, my lawyer talks to the prosecutor, and basically cut some kind of deal - if no other violations within so many days (180??, can't remember), the violation would be tossed.

Get a lawyer.  Chances are it will get tossed, but having a good lawyer will vastly increase those chances.

[BRealistic]

I had a coworker get arrested and his license suspended for something like this.

He had a little to drink (something on an airplane) and was driving home slower than the rest of traffic. A cop pulled him over (like a lion on a wounded gazelle), asked him if he had been drinking, which he honeslty replied "Yes." Then, the cop asked to search the car, found an empty, tiny bottle of wine from the last time he took his glass to the recycling center. And they booked him on that. Kinda sad, because he was a good guy caught in a bad situation.

That was over a month ago, and I still think he can't drive anywhere.

Why is it wrong for anybody to transport an empty alcoholic container? Does that mean nobody under 21 can recycle? That charge sounds like bs to me, or your coworker isn't telling the whole story.

[J86]

Thanks for the help guys.  I'm still going to peruse state law until I find something about that parental notification/bail situation.  That pisses me off.

[dazzleman]

I had a coworker get arrested and his license suspended for something like this.

He had a little to drink (something on an airplane) and was driving home slower than the rest of traffic. A cop pulled him over (like a lion on a wounded gazelle), asked him if he had been drinking, which he honeslty replied "Yes." Then, the cop asked to search the car, found an empty, tiny bottle of wine from the last time he took his glass to the recycling center. And they booked him on that. Kinda sad, because he was a good guy caught in a bad situation.

That was over a month ago, and I still think he can't drive anywhere.

Why is it wrong for anybody to transport an empty alcoholic container? Does that mean nobody under 21 can recycle? That charge sounds like bs to me, or your coworker isn't telling the whole story.

Either that or he didn't know enough to challenge the charges, either on his own or a lawyer.  There are some people who, when they get singled out for penalties inappropriately, just bend over and take it.  Maybe that's what happened, or maybe as you said there's more to the story.

[Raza]

If you're not obviously drunk, just say no, right?  Then they don't have probable cause.  A buddy of mine (legal) had an open container in the car, he was drunk, his wife was drunk, and they were at a sobriety checkpoint.  He threw the open container out the window, put his game face on, said no, and went on home without incident.

[Raza]

But for you, Josh, you were just being dumb.  Wrap it like a present.  Why don't people listen to these bits of wisdom!?  It's a birthday present, and you were going to a birthday party.  Someone from school, or sleepaway camp--or it's a wedding.  

[Catman]

If you're not obviously drunk, just say no, right?  Then they don't have probable cause.  A buddy of mine (legal) had an open container in the car, he was drunk, his wife was drunk, and they were at a sobriety checkpoint.  He threw the open container out the window, put his game face on, said no, and went on home without incident.

Drinking from an open container in MA is a civil offense and carries a $500 fine.

[J86]

But for you, Josh, you were just being dumb.  Wrap it like a present.  Why don't people listen to these bits of wisdom!?  It's a birthday present, and you were going to a birthday party.  Someone from school, or sleepaway camp--or it's a wedding.

I drive with booze in the car every fucking day.  If you think I am going to wrap it like a present every time...  It ain't a problem where I'm from, I just learned it is in the lovely state of New Hampshire.  We got a little lazy by not having a jacket over it, oh well, wake up call I guess.  Next time it will be in a duffel.

[Catman]

But for you, Josh, you were just being dumb.  Wrap it like a present.  Why don't people listen to these bits of wisdom!?  It's a birthday present, and you were going to a birthday party.  Someone from school, or sleepaway camp--or it's a wedding.

I drive with booze in the car every fucking day.  If you think I am going to wrap it like a present every time...  It ain't a problem where I'm from, I just learned it is in the lovely state of New Hampshire.  We got a little lazy by not having a jacket over it, oh well, wake up call I guess.  Next time it will be in a duffel.

Do something long enough and you'll be caught.  Complacency will set in eventually and you'll leave the duffle unzipped.  Then I'll see another thread like this.  Just learn your freakin lesson and wait till your 21 before you drive around with alcohol.

[Rupert]

I always cover the booze, and I'm 21. No need for unnessecary drama.

[Raza]

If you're not obviously drunk, just say no, right?  Then they don't have probable cause.  A buddy of mine (legal) had an open container in the car, he was drunk, his wife was drunk, and they were at a sobriety checkpoint.  He threw the open container out the window, put his game face on, said no, and went on home without incident.

Drinking from an open container in MA is a civil offense and carries a $500 fine.

How do you drink from a closed container?

[dazzleman]

I always cover the booze, and I'm 21. No need for unnessecary drama.

Exactly.  Who wants to attract that kind of attention from a cop.  It can never be positive.

[Rupert]

Like you said, one illegal thing at a time.

[dazzleman]

Like you said, one illegal thing at a time.

That's right, man.  Even if carrying alcohol visibly in closed containers is not illegal, it can only raise questions and potentially lead to complications if you're ever stopped.  When you get stopped, you want the cop to just take the license and registration and do what he has to do, not spend a lot of time asking you questions and poking around in your car.