Question of the Day: Should French cars return to America?

[veeman]

I think perceived reliability differences between Europe and the U.S. have mostly to do with Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura having such a strong foothold in the U.S. and no foothold in Europe.  Those two companies have set the bar so high for the last 40-50 years that a car which would be considered reliable in Europe is not in the U.S.  Also, Americans don't expect to pay a lot for routine maintenance on economy or mainstreamer type cars.  Routine maintenance on a mainstreamer at a VW dealer is a bit more than American or Japanese mainstreamer brands and that turns a lot of Yanks off. 

[MrH]

Yeah, basically Honda and Toyota set the bar so high, Europeans for the most part don't know what owning a reliable vehicle is like   That's kind of a half joke.  Not every European car is unreliable, but they really don't know what they're missing in terms of vehicles that are damn near indestructible.

But their market doesn't call for that either.  They don't drive a lot of miles.  The TUV inspection is so stringent that most cars aren't kept as long as they are in the US.

As to why Toyota/Honda are the kings of the reliability?  It's totally the engineering and manufacturing cultures there.  Toyota is the king of lean manufacturing, which is a big contributor.  Also, the company culture on how to design new vehicles is very different than say Mercedes or BMW.  Ideas aren't wild and off the wall for a new vehicle.  It's very iterative, anything new is vetted to a completely different level than engineering changes at other OEMs.

We made a change across all customers.  Some didn't bat an eye and approved.  Others put up a bit of a fight.  Toyota forced huge amounts of testing and calculations to prove the resiliency before accepting it.  Total pain in the ass to work with them in terms of the level of detail required, but I respect them for it for sure.  That's the level of deep dive I want an OEM to do when I'm buying a car from them.

[CALL_911]

But [older] Peugeots in particular have a reputation for reliability and solidity in places like Africa and the Middle East. It's not uncommon to see an older 404, 504 or 505 etc. still soldiering along today. Despite the ragged appearance, the internal mechanics are solid.

Even the flimsy-looking Citroen 2CV is literally unbreakable and tougher than it looks.

I think French cars in general have a poor reputation in the US because they were incorrectly maintained. If I remember correctly then French cars were sold as low volume specialist cars in your country which meant that they had thin to non-existent dealer networks. You might be able to get away with running a French car in a city like New York where there's bound to be a knowledgeable dealer/mechanic who knows what he's doing, but take the car out to some random garage in Middle-of-Nowhere-Alabama and you're bound to come across a mechanic who won't have the slightest idea how to work on these cars, and in the process screws something up which ultimately leads to the car developing problems.

Some cars develop an unjust reputation for unreliability, like the Citroen SM for example. I recently read an article in Motor Klassik about cars which are claimed to be unreliable, yet are actually very reliable if properly maintained. Yeah, the Citroen SM is a complex car but if you have it serviced at a specialist garage with capable mechanics who know and understand what to do, then it will run reliably. The problem at the time was that the car required both Citroen and Maserati specialists. A standard Citroen garage with its trained mechanics could service and fix an SM - except for the engine, which required a Maserati mechanic. Another problem (that became known later) was that the cam belt was prone to snapping if it wasn't changed at a particular mileage.

I recall watching Jay Leno's video where he takes us for a ride in his Citroen DS and he mentioned that the DS and SM are reliable as long as you maintain them well and above all maintain them CORRECTLY. When you cheapen out on maintenance and try to save a buck here and there, then expect problems to show up.

I can't speak for the Renault Alliance, but at the time I think both AMC and Renault were going through quality issues which leaves no doubt in my mind why the Alliance wasn't a very solid car.

Here, some older Peugeots in Africa still driving on! 

But these French cars are worse at just about everything than your avg Toyota or Honda, and they purportedly need more "know how"? Fuck that!

[Laconian]

That's not the case anymore. All French cars sold today use conventional technology. They ARE doing good things with lightening their cars and developing potent small turbo engines.

[Madman]

Having owned both a 405 and a 505, it was clear to me these cars were designed in two different eras.

The 505 was the last last of the overbuilt rear-drive Peugeots. when the company was still known as "The French Mercedes".  In many ways, it was similar to my rear-drive Volvos or a W123 Mercedes.  They were tough, rugged, durable cars.

In comparison, my 405 (designed several years after the 505) was a very different car.  Compared to the 505, the 405 felt tinny and flimsy.  Sure, it had excellent handling and was more fun to drive, but I could tell it wasn't built as well as the 505.  Likewise, the 405 experienced a number of faults that were never seen on the 505.  405s were plagued with leaking heater cores, wheel bearings that were toast by 80K miles and the expected electrical gremlins.

As for those ancient African Peugeots, I'm sure their owners aren't very concerned with such "luxuries" as functioning air conditioning, power windows, working head/tail lights or properly functioning emission control systems.  Americans, however, expect everything in their cars to work as they are intended and have very little patience for things that fail prematurely.  Remember, I got rid of my Volkswagen Passat because I grew tired of constantly fixing things I've NEVER had to fix on any other car.

If Peugeot does return to America, they MUST make sure their cars are built to last.

[12,000 RPM]

I think French cars in general have a poor reputation in the US because they were incorrectly maintained.

If Americans don't know how to maintain cars, why do Japanese and American cars run with the same owners for hundreds of thousands of miles with no issues? I've heard this thinly veiled insult hurled at Americans a thousand times and it never holds water. Bottom line European cars are just not designed as well or built to the rigors of American driving. That you have to point to 30-40 year old Peugeots and pre-PSA Citroens as "proof" speaks to the clear gap in durability of PSA's current offerings.

[2o6]

A handful of french cars that Peugeot or Citroen made once upon a time, doesn't compare to the dozens of models that Honda and Toyota have made with significant longevity.


I mean, I love my Sonic, but I don't picture it getting past 300K like a Toyota Yaris can, or my friends Scion xB is about to do.

That's not the case anymore. All French cars sold today use conventional technology. They ARE doing good things with lightening their cars and developing potent small turbo engines.

Even still, the big Renaults that would sell here are actually just Nissans in Drag.

[shp4man]

A handful of french cars that Peugeot or Citroen made once upon a time, doesn't compare to the dozens of models that Honda and Toyota have made with significant longevity.


I mean, I love my Sonic, but I don't picture it getting past 300K like a Toyota Yaris can, or my friends Scion xB is about to do.

Even still, the big Renaults that would sell here are actually just Nissans in Drag.

As can 4.6L Crown Vics that start out life as cop cars, get abused like hell, get retired and bought by cab companies. Actually longer than 300K miles.

[veeman]

As can 4.6L Crown Vics that start out life as cop cars, get abused like hell, get retired and bought by cab companies. Actually longer than 300K miles.

But usually on their 3rd rebuilt transmission. 

[ifcar]

But usually on their 3rd rebuilt transmission. 

Yep, a lot of cars can last a long time if you keep fixing them.

[cawimmer430]

But these French cars are worse at just about everything than your avg Toyota or Honda, and they purportedly need more "know how"? Fuck that!

Define "worse"?

[cawimmer430]

If Americans don't know how to maintain cars, why do Japanese and American cars run with the same owners for hundreds of thousands of miles with no issues? I've heard this thinly veiled insult hurled at Americans a thousand times and it never holds water.

Please remember that "Americans not knowing how to maintain cars" is a generalization, and it may or may not be true or false. Fact is, there are people out there who cheapen out on maintenance and this will cause problems down the road. People will buy or lease some expensive luxury car and then try to save some bucks by giving it cheaper (not recommended) oil. Or they won't change the oil at the recommended intervals.

If European cars were so unreliable then people wouldn't buy them or keep them for long. Fact is many Europeans drive huge distances per year and keep their cars for longer periods. I suppose the stringent TÜV keeps people on the ball in terms of maintenance. If your car fails to pass the TÜV for whatever reason you will be spending money to get it fixed so that it will be road-legal again. So people here generally don't cheapen out on maintenance.

And some of the older French cars, Citroens in particular, required specialist maintenance. Back in the day the average American mechanic wouldn't have been able to service a DS, because the technology the way it was built were complex and so completely different from the average car that these guys usually worked on. Get my drift? Jay Leno even mentioned this in his DS video, and I think he has a valid point.

Older Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Maseratis, Citroens, Jaguars etc. are hell to work on for mechanics because they are built and engineered differently than your average car. And I personally feel that many cars from these marques did acquire some of their shoddy reputations from this difficulty-to-work-on-by-mechanics experience. I mean open up the engine bay of an older Jaguar XJ6 or XJ12... it's a mess in there.

Bottom line European cars are just not designed as well or built to the rigors of American driving. That you have to point to 30-40 year old Peugeots and pre-PSA Citroens as "proof" speaks to the clear gap in durability of PSA's current offerings.

Why would the Europeans design cars that are not "built to last?" That makes no sense. 

In my experience European cars are reliable. They might not reach Japanese levels of reliability but they're reliable enough. My family keeps their cars for decades and we've had no major issues with our European (German) cars. In fact the car I am currently driving (BMW 118i) has had more issues than any of our Benzes. I've had six ignition coil failures (and it's always been the two rear ones where most of the heat is generated) which BMW has replaced under warranty and for free when my warranty expired because it's a known issue on the 4-cylinder models. The last ignition coil failure happened a little over 40,000 km if memory serves me right. I'm at 93,000+ right now and since then I've had no issues (except for a broken tail-light bulb which was fixed within 5 minutes at the next BMW dealer).

In my view this is a reliable car. It starts up every day and I have no issues. And if something were to happen I'll get it fixed. Just because I have a faulty rear tail light is no reason to throw a fit and call the car "unreliable."

[2o6]

If an ignition coil failed at 93,000kms I would be heartless mad.


That's 57,000 miles. In the US, that would be considered "low miles".

[cawimmer430]

I googled "French car reliability 2016" and came across this. Have a look at it. Most of the values are pretty close, so essentially there are "little differences" in overall reliability. That's how I am reading them.

Link: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/driver-power/86787/most-reliable-used-cars-2016


An example of the charts you'll see on the page.

[cawimmer430]

If an ignition coil failed at 93,000kms I would be heartless mad.

That's 57,000 miles. In the US, that would be considered "low miles".

The problem was that I've had those six ignition coil failures literally within a 20,000 km range. They'd fail, get replaced and then fail after maybe 5,000 km. That was the issue.

And ever since the last failure I've had no more problems with them. In fact before they could fail again my car was recalled and BMW gave me a new set of ignition coils. And this time they're lasting! Looks like BMW finally got their act together and gave me some good ones. I'm on a 1-Series owner forum and a lot of guys with the 4-cylinder gasoline-powered E87s (116i, 118i and 120i) had issues with the ignition coils. But since the last major recall their cars seem to be ignition-coil reliable.

[CALL_911]

If an ignition coil failed at 93,000kms I would be heartless mad.


That's 57,000 miles. In the US, that would be considered "low miles".

Heh, I've had like all of mine go by ~40k

[CALL_911]

Define "worse"?

Shittier

[Soup DeVille]

Yep, a lot of cars can last a long time if you keep fixing them.

How much it costs to fix them is a big difference too. Panther cars are cheap as hell to keep running. I've bought several parts for under five dollars; could replace the drivetrain for a few hundred dollars.

Compare this to almost any European car; where it's hard to do anything on any of them for less than $300.

[93JC]

In my experience European cars are reliable. They might not reach Japanese levels of reliability but they're reliable enough. My family keeps their cars for decades and we've had no major issues with our European (German) cars. In fact the car I am currently driving (BMW 118i) has had more issues than any of our Benzes. I've had six ignition coil failures (and it's always been the two rear ones where most of the heat is generated) which BMW has replaced under warranty and for free when my warranty expired because it's a known issue on the 4-cylinder models. The last ignition coil failure happened a little over 40,000 km if memory serves me right. I'm at 93,000+ right now and since then I've had no issues (except for a broken tail-light bulb which was fixed within 5 minutes at the next BMW dealer).

In my view this is a reliable car. It starts up every day and I have no issues. And if something were to happen I'll get it fixed. Just because I have a faulty rear tail light is no reason to throw a fit and call the car "unreliable."

This is exactly what Mike's talking about when he says:

Yeah, basically Honda and Toyota set the bar so high, Europeans for the most part don't know what owning a reliable vehicle is like   That's kind of a half joke.  Not every European car is unreliable, but they really don't know what they're missing in terms of vehicles that are damn near indestructible.

Your car has had six ignition coils replaced and in your view it's reliable? I'd be mad if I had to replace ONE of my ignition coils, ever, let alone SIX within the span of 20,000 km!

You have a very, very different idea of what 'reliable' means. By comparison my Mazda has about 69,000 km on it, I've owned it for exactly seven years as of today, and it has had two problems:

1) I had the battery replaced in January of 2011 under warranty, because it was too close to not being able to start my car in -20 °c weather for my liking. (Had a load test done, came back at 9.8 V, which the service advisor tried to argue was "within spec". Ha!)
2) I had the driver's door latch assembly replaced in January of 2013 because the cable that connected the door handle to the latch snapped. Cost me about $300.

I was not happy when either of these things happened, but at least they were one-offs. All in all, beyond these two issues, I'm happy with it. I would say it's pretty reliable, and it has never left me stranded. I've never done anything more than oil changes, a transmission fluid change last year, and had the tires replaced this year for the first time. It's still running the original brake pads.

If I had the kind of repeated issues you've had with your BMW's ignition coils—issues that would prevent the car from being driveable—I would probably get rid of the damned thing and swear off that brand for a long time.

[Vinsanity]

I think perceived reliability differences between Europe and the U.S. have mostly to do with Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura having such a strong foothold in the U.S. and no foothold in Europe.  Those two companies have set the bar so high for the last 40-50 years that a car which would be considered reliable in Europe is not in the U.S.  Also, Americans don't expect to pay a lot for routine maintenance on economy or mainstreamer type cars.  Routine maintenance on a mainstreamer at a VW dealer is a bit more than American or Japanese mainstreamer brands and that turns a lot of Yanks off. 

It always makes me chuckle when a European publication refers to BMW's as the "sensible/practical" choice compared to something like a Citroen or Alfa, whereas over here, people are so afraid of owning BMW's past their warranty periods, that certain models are temptingly cheap to buy, even with a factory certified warranty.

[12,000 RPM]

Yea I'm not even sure where to start with Wimmer on this one. For starters aside from the UK European drivers put less miles on their car than Americans. Up to 1/3 less. That adds up. Secondly Europeans have an appetite for higher maintenance. A Corolla will never chew through 6 ignition coils in its lifetime. Such poor reliability is unheard of in most mainstreamers. And what the hell is the point of a generalization if you don't even know if it's rooted in fact? Just a way of taking a swipe at Americans? How are we the dumb ones when you guys pay $10 for $2 gas and keep buying unreliable cars?

[MrH]

6 ignition coils in under 60k miles.

[68_427]

6 ignition coils in under 60k miles.

On a 4cyl engine

[giant_mtb]

6 ignition coils in under 60k miles.

German reliability!

...also an anecdote...there's kind of a reason I got rid of my A4 shortly after 65,000 miles...and then bought a Toyota with 125k miles on it and had more confidence in its reliability/cost over ownership.

[68_427]

They reliably fail

Maybe that's what he meant

[12,000 RPM]

Yea the Z was dead reliable from 160K miles on to 190K. Just needed a clutch bleed and a window regulator

[mzziaz]

Meh, i've driven 3 different french cars for 150.000 kms and changed nothing but an alternator, among them the infamous Laguna II which scored horribly on all reliability ratings.

I suspect the difference in reliability across brands are less than it has ever been before. However, I believe cost of repairs vary quite a bit between brands. Euro brands are perhaps relatively cheaper to repair at home than over the pond.

[Morris Minor]

Is there room for another mainstream manufacturer's products in the US market? Between US domestic, Japanese, Korean & German - there's no lacking of choice.

[Madman]

I suspect the difference in reliability across brands are less than it has ever been before. However, I believe cost of repairs vary quite a bit between brands. Euro brands are perhaps relatively cheaper to repair at home than over the pond.

It seems in recent years the reliability gap has closed to the point where it is statistically irrelevant.

6 ignition coils in under 60k miles.

I wish the coil packs were the only thing I had to replace on my 2003 Passat.  At least coil packs are cheap and can be swapped in seconds.  What I couldn't abide were $1,000 electronic modules, $2,000 catalytic converters and having to dismantle the entire front end of the car (at a cost of $1,200) just to replace a belt.  All this on a car with less than 90K miles on it!  Kleenex was more durable!

Even though I'm sure VW have improved considerably since then (it's not as if they could have got any worse), I'd still hesitate before buying another one.