Can't order a car spec'd the way I want

[12,000 RPM]

I don't like the styling of it.  I prefer the sedans.  The Accord sedan sport model with manual transmission is also a possibility.  The Accord sedan is very very common though which isn't necessarily a deal breaker.  A new V6 Accord coupe I believe is close to 30 thousand.  For that money, I'd prefer a V8 pony car.

I don't think you're getting any pony car outside of a stripper Challenger for under 30K. AV6 is definitely an acquired taste though. Even as a Honda fanboi I would probably pass.

Between the Accord Sport sedan and the Mazda 6 though I'm thinking the Accord will be better in every way.

[veeman]

I don't think you're getting any pony car outside of a stripper Challenger for under 30K. AV6 is definitely an acquired taste though. Even as a Honda fanboi I would probably pass.

Between the Accord Sport sedan and the Mazda 6 though I'm thinking the Accord will be better in every way.

.

For sure.  The only reason for me to take a 4 cylinder Honda Accord or Mazda 6 over a V8 pony car is the 10 thousand dollar cheaper price.  I thought gas cost would be a factor but it's really not that big a difference.  But the cost difference between a V6 Accord coupe and V8 pony car is less than half that. 

Camaro is out.  I need a backseat sometimes to ferry around my kids.  There are some other costs I'm not taking into full account though.  I'd have to get an extra set of tires and wheels in the winter with a Mustang whereas I could forego that in an Accord or Mazda.  I'd attract more unwanted law enforcement attention in a Mustang.  Parking a Mustang in my driveway at home or at my work garage will bring some unwanted attention.  It's not an exotic or anything like that, but it is showy and there's definite advantages of a sleeper great driver.

[Byteme]

Between the Accord Sport sedan and the Mazda 6 though I'm thinking the Accord will be better in every way.

Just about every car magazine and road tester would disagree.   

[12,000 RPM]

Just about every car magazine and road tester would disagree.   

Well, it wouldn't be the first time they were wrong. The current 3 is hardly God's gift to driving either. I would not doubt that the current base Civic drives better IRL with the measly 2.0. I know mine sure does stock. When the turbo version comes out it will be game over.

[GoCougs]

I don't like the styling of it.  I prefer the sedans.  The Accord sedan sport model with manual transmission is also a possibility.  The Accord sedan is very very common though which isn't necessarily a deal breaker.  A new V6 Accord coupe I believe is close to 30 thousand.  For that money, I'd prefer a V8 pony car. 

Sedan sadly doesn't have V6 + M/T like the coupe. Even so the the Sedan Sport w/M/T is a hidden enthusiast gem.

The V6 Accord Coupe is a legit daily driver because of legit back seats which neither the Camaro nor Mustang have.

[12,000 RPM]

Accord V6-6 needs an LSD and serious suspension and brakes to be a real contender. Not Brembo/Ohlins shit but something to at least match the engine. As is it's like a 100lb person walking a 100lb dog.

[93JC]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time they were wrong. The current 3 is hardly God's gift to driving either. I would not doubt that the current base Civic drives better IRL with the measly 2.0. I know mine sure does stock. When the turbo version comes out it will be game over.

lel u mad bruh?

[veeman]

Sedan sadly doesn't have V6 + M/T like the coupe. Even so the the Sedan Sport w/M/T is a hidden enthusiast gem.

The V6 Accord Coupe is a legit daily driver because of legit back seats which neither the Camaro nor Mustang have.

True.  I don't need legit back seats though.  Just enough room to take my young kiddos on local short distance drives a few times a week.   

[dazzleman]

Both my BMWs were factory ordered.  That was just standard practice, as it used to be with American cars.

The Audi was bought off the lot, not of my dealer, but some other dealer.  It was not factory ordered.

I have heard for a long time that the mass market cars were trying to get away from factory ordering.  That's why they started to offer option packages rather than individual options, so there would be fewer choices and buyers would select from cars that were already out there.

Still, your case seems extreme.  As others have said, I suggest you try a different dealer.

[MX793]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time they were wrong. The current 3 is hardly God's gift to driving either. I would not doubt that the current base Civic drives better IRL with the measly 2.0. I know mine sure does stock. When the turbo version comes out it will be game over.

If your judgement is clouded by Honda bias, sure.

1st generation 3 was the best-driving, from an enthusiast's standpoint, C-segment car of its generation in the US.  C&D rated it better in the "chassis" category (which includes steering) than the 8th generation across the board.  Motor Trend declared it the sports sedan of the segment and rated it ahead of the 8th gen Civic as well.  The 3rd generation 3 blew the 9th gen Civic out of the water when C&D compared those.  C&D puts the 10th gen Civic and the 3rd generation 3 about on par, with the Civic having better brake feel, but the 3 gets the nod in "fun to drive".  Automobile also rates the 3rd gen 3 as the sportier, more fun-to-drive car of the two.

Cars lose something in steering feel when they go to EPAS, IMO.  Haven't driven a 3rd gen 3 yet, but the hydraulic power steering in the 1st and 2nd gens was great.  The last Civic to use traditional, hydraulic power steering was the 8th gen.  If you were disappointed by steering feel in the 3rd gen 3 (which is the first generation to use EPAS), I find it hard to believe you'll find the 10th generation Civic's electric rack any more satisfying.  Motor Trend rated the Mazda's steering rack as being the best in segment, better than the 10th gen Civic.

The new Civic has placed better than the latest 3 in a few major comparisons, but not based on fun to drive.  It places better because it gets better fuel economy, or has a more comfortable ride, or better feature content combined with being almost as fun to drive.  It's better at being a mainstream compact while still offering some fun to drive factor, whereas the Mazda is a sports sedan playing in the mainstream compact segment.

[ifcar]

True.  I don't need legit back seats though.  Just enough room to take my young kiddos on local short distance drives a few times a week.   

Would you be keeping the car long enough for them to become less-young kiddos?

[Byteme]

Would you be keeping the car long enough for them to become less-young kiddos?

You beat me to it.

I don't know how big his kids are but I was going to point out that there is a big difference in size between, for example, a 3 year old and a 7 year old and 4 years by today's standards is a pretty short time to keep an automobile.   

[MrH]

I don't know what you guys are talking about.  4 years to own a car is an eternity!

[MX793]

I would say the Mustang's rear seat is OK for anyone under 5'4" assuming front seat occupants are average height.  Bit of effort to get in or out, but once in there, it should be comfortable enough for an hour drive or more with no major complaints.  At 5'11", I can fit, but have to hunch down a bit to keep my head from hitting the rear glass.  Wouldn't want to be back there more than 15 or 20 minutes.

[TBR]

I don't think you're getting any pony car outside of a stripper Challenger for under 30K. AV6 is definitely an acquired taste though. Even as a Honda fanboi I would probably pass.

Between the Accord Sport sedan and the Mazda 6 though I'm thinking the Accord will be better in every way.

I prefer the Honda, but the only place it has a clear edge (outside of presumably back seat space) is in the auto transmission. The 6's regular mode is too conservative and the sport mode is too aggressive. This problem is obviously solved by going with the manual transmission.

I like the 6's exterior styling, interior style, and handling better.

[veeman]

Regarding backseat space, my daughter is less than 10 and my son is a few years younger than that.  I have no idea how long I'll keep my next car.  My Sonata is almost a decade old and it runs fine.  I just need them to be able to fit in my next car without getting a crick in their neck as I take them to soccer practice or whatever.  On the weekends I usually end up taking the Sonata to ferry them around as I like to check the car is running well and doesn't need a brake job or something like that.  During the weekdays, our nanny drives my kids around in the Sonata.

When I'm with my wife, with or without kids, either I or she drives the big SUV.

[veeman]

The other thing is let's say I keep the car for 7 or so years, by then my kids will be old enough to sit in the front passenger seat (well at least one at a time).

[12,000 RPM]

If your judgement is clouded by Honda bias, sure.

1st generation 3 was the best-driving, from an enthusiast's standpoint, C-segment car of its generation in the US.  C&D rated it better in the "chassis" category (which includes steering) than the 8th generation across the board.  Motor Trend declared it the sports sedan of the segment and rated it ahead of the 8th gen Civic as well.  The 3rd generation 3 blew the 9th gen Civic out of the water when C&D compared those.  C&D puts the 10th gen Civic and the 3rd generation 3 about on par, with the Civic having better brake feel, but the 3 gets the nod in "fun to drive".  Automobile also rates the 3rd gen 3 as the sportier, more fun-to-drive car of the two.

Cars lose something in steering feel when they go to EPAS, IMO.  Haven't driven a 3rd gen 3 yet, but the hydraulic power steering in the 1st and 2nd gens was great.  The last Civic to use traditional, hydraulic power steering was the 8th gen.  If you were disappointed by steering feel in the 3rd gen 3 (which is the first generation to use EPAS), I find it hard to believe you'll find the 10th generation Civic's electric rack any more satisfying.  Motor Trend rated the Mazda's steering rack as being the best in segment, better than the 10th gen Civic.

The new Civic has placed better than the latest 3 in a few major comparisons, but not based on fun to drive.  It places better because it gets better fuel economy, or has a more comfortable ride, or better feature content combined with being almost as fun to drive.  It's better at being a mainstream compact while still offering some fun to drive factor, whereas the Mazda is a sports sedan playing in the mainstream compact segment.

I haven't driven the 1st gen, but I did have the current gen and a Golf TSI for about a week a piece. If the current 3 is what is considered a sports sedan today the sports sedan is in crisis. It was not a bad car at all, but dynamically it was as inert and anodyne as the Golf, while also being more down on power in the real world than specs suggest. (8th gen) Civic rotates way more easily and I think has quicker steering, and every Honda mainstreamer I've driven/owned has a light + playful suspension tune out of the box that was way more fun than the 3's stock tune.

I think Mazda's underdog status has made them the perfect foil for auto journalists' "Save the manual" themed contrarianism. I like the 3, mainly for its upscale feel. But it wasn't the underoo glazing dynamic revelation the press keeps declaring it to be, at least in i Touring trim (which has been lauded). Am I a Honda fanboi? Sure, but I have demonstrable reasons. When the Civic hatch comes, with its 1.5T engine across the board and 6MT I think it will take the Civic's dynamic crown back decisively.

[2o6]

The new Civic is OK, but you're heaping high praise on a car you haven't even driven. (For the record I really like the new Civic)

[MX793]

I've only seen 8th gen Si models at autocrosses, but a friend did some fun laps in his new 3i and damn near spun out in relatively fast slalom transition.  He previously competed with a 1st gen 3s hatch and a 2nd gen Speed3.  Said the new car is as tailhappy as the older generations.  Considering that my 3s has been the only car I've ever actually spun out on dry pavement at an autocross (and most of my auto-x experience is in powerful, RWD cars), I'd say that's pretty tail happy. 

There was one smaller parking lot we ran on that I could literally drift the 3 around one of the sweepers (slightly downhill and off camber) with a light tap of the brake on corner entry.  I'm not talking slight rotation, I'm talking about tire-screeching, opposite-lock drift.  The kind that typically requires use of an e-brake on a FWD.  The car was very neutral for a FWD at the limit.

[12,000 RPM]

Maybe the rental spec 3s are completely different than the retail ones. Unlikely, but the only explanation I can come with. There was no kind of tail action whatsoever in the rental I had, and believe me I tried. It came with the OEM tires too.

[MX793]

Maybe the rental spec 3s are completely different than the retail ones. Unlikely, but the only explanation I can come with. There was no kind of tail action whatsoever in the rental I had, and believe me I tried. It came with the OEM tires too.

Did you turn the ESP off?

Also, to coax the first gen cars to rotate, you had to be at 9 or 10/10ths.  Harder than you should ever be pushing a car on public streets.  You could feel a little rotation in spirited street driving in the right conditions, but it was otherwise just neutrally planted.

[2o6]

Yeah, the limits on these compact cars are pretty high

[Morris Minor]

It''s too bad dealers don't keep more of base / stripper models around. I understand why, but IMO they're a good measure of a car manufacturer: their level of cynicism (or lack thereof), & willingness to offer genuine value. If the L version is horrible, chances are the GLX-with-all-Gizmos is going to be mutton dressed up as lamb.

[12,000 RPM]

Did you turn the ESP off?

No, I don't turn ESP off on any car on the street. I still looped the Z a few times with ESP on. I have some safe-ish hairpins and banked sweepers on my commute where I can push a bit. Civic doesn't have ESP at all.

[MrH]

You don't turn off stability control and then complain you can't get the car to rotate?

[2o6]

I know GM stabilitrak is very good at keeping the Sonic from doing anything fun.


It even saved me from dying when I had cruise control on in a downpour going 72MPH with balding tires (not the smartest thing I've done)


Sailed across three lanes of traffic. Def an oh shit moment

[12,000 RPM]

You don't turn off stability control and then complain you can't get the car to rotate?

Z (and G for that matter) rotated fine with it on, not under power. None of the reviews exalting the 3's dynamic prowess spoke to anything about switching it off. And I doubt turning it off would do anything about the numb steering or limp engine.

[MX793]

The ESP on the Z3M Roadster I flogged around the auto-x course last weekend (on wet asphalt) didn't allow for anything more than a slight wiggle.  Under neutral throttle it understeered (as most cars do), and power oversteer with nannies on was a no-go.

And if you're pushing a car hard enough to completely spin out on the street, and there isn't ice or snow or oil on the ground, you are driving way too aggressively for public roads.  Get yourself to an auto-x or track day if you want to pull that stuff.  For your sake and the sake of everyone else on the road.

[MexicoCityM3]

The ESP on the Z3M Roadster I flogged around the auto-x course last weekend (on wet asphalt) didn't allow for anything more than a slight wiggle.  Under neutral throttle it understeered (as most cars do), and power oversteer with nannies on was a no-go.

And if you're pushing a car hard enough to completely spin out on the street, and there isn't ice or snow or oil on the ground, you are driving way too aggressively for public roads.  Get yourself to an auto-x or track day if you want to pull that stuff.  For your sake and the sake of everyone else on the road.

Z (and G for that matter) rotated fine with it on, not under power. None of the reviews exalting the 3's dynamic prowess spoke to anything about switching it off. And I doubt turning it off would do anything about the numb steering or limp engine.

Nissan's ESP must be pretty bad then. I can't get my cars out of shape with DSC on unless I wanted to kill myself - I guess because I literally haven't ever done it.

I usually leave DSC on for the first few laps when I track. Cars won't rotate on the throttle. Just a bit on the MDM intermediate mode but not at all on say, a high speed corner.