A picture is worth 1000 words: RAV4 outsells Camry for first time

[12,000 RPM]

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/09/didnt-take-five-years-toyota-rav4-outsold-toyota-camry-august-2016/

Good article and analysis but for me the bigger takeaway came from these two pictures in the article:





If you regularly use your trunk at all the advantage should be immediately obvious. RAV4 FWD only takes a 2MPG FE ding, is 9" shorter yadda yadda..........

It's happening!

[SJ_GTI]

Interesting.

Definitely seems like the US is moving away from sedans, but instead of wagons/hatches we are going toward CUVs (ie: car based "SUVS").

Some of the newer mini-CUVs pretty much look like tall hatchbacks. Not even that much lift, really. I see quite a few Buick Encore's around my neighborhood and they are actually decent looking. Mazda's CX-3 is good looking as well. Honda's HRV (I think that is what is called) and Chevy's Trax are reasonably good looking as well.

[MrH]

In the words of Ja Rule:  it's murrrrdaaaaa

http://jalopnik.com/the-family-sedan-is-getting-murdered-by-the-crossover-1786244975

I think I'm forever in the 2 box club now.

[Payman]

This tells me that for Americans, the issue was not that they didn't like hatchbacks, but rather they wanted larger hatchbacks.

[MrH]

Pretty much.  Large, AWD hatchbacks that can deal with giant potholes and poorly designed driveways.  For the daily grind, I totally agree too.

[AutobahnSHO]

This tells me that for Americans, the issue was not that they didn't like hatchbacks, but rather they wanted larger hatchbacks.

Hatchbacks which aren't so low to the ground, so easier to get in and out of.

[Byteme]

Interesting.

Definitely seems like the US is moving away from sedans, but instead of wagons/hatches we are going toward CUVs (ie: car based "SUVS").

I see those and immediately think "Tall Station Wagon" which is essentially all they are.   

[Payman]

I think there's also a growing popular need for a Homedepot/Ikeamobile. More and more people prefer to carry home that built-in dishwasher and install it themselves, rather than have it delivered. Some places don't even deliver appliances anymore, let alone set them up, or if they do they charge a small fortune. Same with new lawnmowers, patio furniture, bbqs, etc etc.

[Byteme]

I think there's also a growing popular need for a Homedepot/Ikeamobile. More and more people prefer to carry home that built-in dishwasher and install it themselves, rather than have it delivered. Some places don't even deliver appliances anymore, let alone set them up, or if they do they charge a small fortune. Same with new lawnmowers, patio furniture, bbqs, etc etc.

True enough. 

If I were restricted to just one vehicle I'd buy a sedan like a Mazda 6 and have a trailer hitch installed and get a small utility trailer for those events you mention.   

[Lebowski]

I think there's also a growing popular need for a Homedepot/Ikeamobile. More and more people prefer to carry home that built-in dishwasher and install it themselves, rather than have it delivered. Some places don't even deliver appliances anymore, let alone set them up, or if they do they charge a small fortune. Same with new lawnmowers, patio furniture, bbqs, etc etc.

What?

It's easier than ever to get shit delivered. It's usually one click away.

[Payman]

What?

It's easier than ever to get shit delivered. It's usually one click away.

That greatly depends on where you are. Not only that, but most people I know like to check out large big dollar items in person, like the stuff I mentioned in the previous post. Can't do a proper compare of mowers and bbqs from a computer screen.

[12,000 RPM]

I'm almost certain I called this coming to be before, and people said I was wrong/crazy. I can accept being crazy, but I was right god damn it.

The only people mainstream sedans make sense for are solo commuters. If you are loading really young/old people and stuff into a vehicle very often, which a huge and growing slice of the US population is, there's absolutely no reason not to get a crossover.

I will say this though- looking more and more into it, the belly draggin' unibody 3 row crossover makes next to no sense in the context of minivans. They weigh the same, drive the same, and burn the same fuel, but from the c-pillar back the minivan reigns supreme by a wide margin. I hope to never be in a position where I will need a 3 row vehicle, but if I ever find myself in such a place I will immediately submit to my minivan fate, rather than try and fake the funk with a  belly dragger.

[12,000 RPM]

One thing I'm also wondering is if a gas price spike would even have an impact. Like I know I said before, you compare something like a CR-V to an Accord, gas mileage is damn near at parity.

Something else to keep in mind is the growth of cars. Again my Civic is about the size of my old Accords inside (though the back seat is a little narrower). The current Civic for all intents and purposes is a midsizer, not just in size but performance, equipment and build quality too. In the new Civic's context what purpose does the Accord serve? Lower trims don't really bring much to the table over a Civic than a bigger back seat, and top end trims are dangerously close to the more attractive (IMO) TLX. A TLX V6 starts at $35K........

Truthfully I would rather see more "CUV coupes" than sedans. They have pretty much nuked the fun out of most midsize sedans. I wouldn't mind if the next Maxima was a sportier take on the Murano for example.

[Payman]

One thing I'm also wondering is if a gas price spike would even have an impact. Like I know I said before, you compare something like a CR-V to an Accord, gas mileage is damn near at parity.

Something else to keep in mind is the growth of cars. Again my Civic is about the size of my old Accords inside (though the back seat is a little narrower). The current Civic for all intents and purposes is a midsizer, not just in size but performance, equipment and build quality too. In the new Civic's context what purpose does the Accord serve? Lower trims don't really bring much to the table over a Civic than a bigger back seat, and top end trims are dangerously close to the more attractive (IMO) TLX. A TLX V6 starts at $35K........

Truthfully I would rather see more "CUV coupes" than sedans. They have pretty much nuked the fun out of most midsize sedans. I wouldn't mind if the next Maxima was a sportier take on the Murano for example.

Fuck. That.

[ifcar]

I'm almost certain I called this coming to be before, and people said I was wrong/crazy. I can accept being crazy, but I was right god damn it.

No, the people who are wrong/crazy are the ones who say the midsize sedan is "dead" -- you included -- just because some automakers' midsize sedans are outsold by their crossovers. Over-the-top nonsense.

[12,000 RPM]

No, the people who are wrong/crazy are the ones who say the midsize sedan is "dead" -- you included -- just because some automakers' midsize sedans are outsold by their crossovers. Over-the-top nonsense.

Bruv the midsize decline is accelerating

I was prescient

[AutobahnSHO]

I compared the SUV vs. minivan a couple weeks ago. 2016 Pilot vs. 2016 Odyssey. The Pilot has a new engine which the Odyssey is supposed to get next year.

Pilot
$31,245 base  (AWD starts at $33,045)
19/26 MPG
6.1sec zero to 60mph
152.9 cubic ft "passenger volume"

Odyssey
$30,450 base
19/28 MPG
7.7sec zero to 70mph
172.6 cubic ft "passenger volume"

That's quite a bit more space for the sake of a little off-roadability and "cooler" image.

Also the middle seats are removable in Odyssey, I've ridden around with all of them out for a while, just fold the 3rd row into the floor or pop it back up as needed. Kinda weird "limousine seating" but great for hauling junk. Because you get even more room then!!

[12,000 RPM]

Fuck. That.

Be realistic... we are in a new era, for better or worse

[Payman]

Be realistic... we are in a new era, for better or worse

Well, it's not like they can make the Maxima look any worse.

[Byteme]

The only people mainstream sedans make sense for are solo commuters. If you are loading really young/old people and stuff into a vehicle very often, which a huge and growing slice of the US population is, there's absolutely no reason not to get a crossover.

And there is absolutely every reason for one to buy what they want regardless of what someone else thinks they do or do not need.   

[giant_mtb]

Truthfully I would rather see more "CUV coupes" than sedans. They have pretty much nuked the fun out of most midsize sedans. I wouldn't mind if the next Maxima was a sportier take on the Murano for example.

Didn't Nissan already try that with the disgusting Juke?

[BimmerM3]

Fuck. That.

+1.

I've only driven a handful of CUVs, but I'm really not a fan of the way they drive. They're still tall like traditional trucks and SUVs, but people want them to handle like cars, so they just seem to end up having stiff suspensions, but still don't actually drive very well. I prefer the way my Explorer drives - it's not trying to be something it's not.

[Byteme]

+1.

I've only driven a handful of CUVs, but I'm really not a fan of the way they drive. They're still tall like traditional trucks and SUVs, but people want them to handle like cars, so they just seem to end up having stiff suspensions, but still don't actually drive very well. I prefer the way my Explorer drives - it's not trying to be something it's not.

At the other end of the spectrum everybody is saying the new Jaguar F-Pace if virtually an F-type with hauling capacity and seating for 4.

[12,000 RPM]

And there is absolutely every reason for one to buy what they want regardless of what someone else thinks they do or do not need.   

Fair enough, just stating my opinion, not writing laws

At the other end of the spectrum everybody is saying the new Jaguar F-Pace if virtually an F-type with hauling capacity and seating for 4.

Yea I think that's just a matter of tuning. There are a lot of cars... including some "sporty" cars... that drive like crap too. Porsche Macan, Infiniti FX (fuck whatever they are calling it now), Audi Q5 all drive pretty well

[giant_mtb]

Q5 drives like a tall version of my A4.  Now that I don't has A4, my mom's Q5 is about as close as I can get to re-living those glory days.  That turb0.

[MX793]

One thing I'm also wondering is if a gas price spike would even have an impact. Like I know I said before, you compare something like a CR-V to an Accord, gas mileage is damn near at parity.

Something else to keep in mind is the growth of cars. Again my Civic is about the size of my old Accords inside (though the back seat is a little narrower). The current Civic for all intents and purposes is a midsizer, not just in size but performance, equipment and build quality too. In the new Civic's context what purpose does the Accord serve? Lower trims don't really bring much to the table over a Civic than a bigger back seat, and top end trims are dangerously close to the more attractive (IMO) TLX. A TLX V6 starts at $35K........

Truthfully I would rather see more "CUV coupes" than sedans. They have pretty much nuked the fun out of most midsize sedans. I wouldn't mind if the next Maxima was a sportier take on the Murano for example.

And you think that a tall car with increased ride height, and a higher CG, based on the same platforms as those boring and un-fun midsize sedans, will drive better or be more fun than the non-CUV version?

[Madman]

The problem with modern sedans is that their designs have been compromised in the name of styling and aerodynamics.

On nearly all modern sedans, the base of the rear window has been stretched back so far, there is barely any room left for a trunk opening.  Compare this to my old Volvo 740.  The upright rear window, box-shaped trunk compartment and a lid that lifted up to the fully vertical position meant I was able to transport a large chest-of-drawers fully upright.  It was like having a small pickup truck cargo bed.

Can you do this with any modern sedan, with their mail-slot trunk apertures?  No way!  Is it any wonder consumers are now shunning today's horribly impractical breed of sedans for something able to carry an object bigger than a slimline briefcase?

[12,000 RPM]

And you think that a tall car with increased ride height, and a higher CG, based on the same platforms as those boring and un-fun midsize sedans, will drive better or be more fun than the non-CUV version?

No, but it would be close enough and way more usable. I mean if I had to pick between the new S4 and an SQ5 I'm going with the SQ5. It's not like we are talking an RS4 or w/e, I feel like sedans that fun are mostly dead and gone.

[veeman]

Most appliances aren't going to fit in a RAV4 or the like type of SUV.  You need a pick-up or minivan to bring most large appliances home.

My parents recently bought a Chevy Equinox.  GM was having a firesale on FWD versions of them.  It's a better fit for them compared with the Malibu, which is the car they used to drive on long trips.  Extra gas cost is a few hundred dollars a year.  For that they get easier seating, easier loading/unloading, better ground clearance in the winter, and as good a ride or better. 

The lower center of gravity of a sedan compared with an SUV making it usually handle better is moot in the U.S. because most places have wide flat roads and speed limits are low. 

[Madman]

Most appliances aren't going to fit in a RAV4 or the like type of SUV.  You need a pick-up or minivan to bring most large appliances home.

Pickup or minivan, my ass!

Here's living proof a tumble dryer will fit into a Passat wagon.  Ask me how I know!