Tesla

[Soup DeVille]

I think Musk needs to step down.

Perhaps just back off.

Stop trying to revolutionize everything, get the product and quality right and let people who know large scale manufacturing take care of production.

[MrH]

I think bankruptcy and/or fraud charges are near for old Elon, and he's on a PR campaign now to try to build his case as just a guy trying to save the world, hence the attempts at the Thai cave solution and now Flint water oddly.

[GoCougs]

What exactly is that stat really suppose to mean?  I'm sure the assembly time of a Focus is much less then a BMW X5 which is less than a McLaren 720s

That Tesla has screwed up both product design AND manufacturing...

[GoCougs]

"The plan is eventually to use Musk's tunnel-digging venture, the Boring Co., to dig an underground passageway to bring seats to and from the main Fremont factory, about 2 miles away. "


You have got to admire his ambition.

Sounds ridiculous to me.

[Soup DeVille]

I think bankruptcy and/or fraud charges are near for old Elon, and he's on a PR campaign now to try to build his case as just a guy trying to save the world, hence the attempts at the Thai cave solution and now Flint water oddly.

The Flint water thing has been over; since January of 2017, the water has tested good. They still gave out free bottled water until May of this year. The only real issue is lead service pipes to homes, which is the same story in almost all cities east of the Mississippi, and Flint residents have been provided with free filter systems for that and subsidies for them to replace their pipes.

[r0tor]

Oops, someone just got caught in the short game

https://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-model-3-teardown-profitability/

[Laconian]

Oops, someone just got caught in the short game

https://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-model-3-teardown-profitability/

lol

[GoCougs]

Oops, someone just got caught in the short game

https://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-model-3-teardown-profitability/

Actually, someone got caught on the misunderstanding of the concept of "profitability." Tesla has had a positive gross margin since the debut of the Model S, and some quarters it's approached 30%:

https://ycharts.com/companies/TSLA/gross_profit_margin



It's easy to be "profitable" yet still lose billions$ like Telsa.

[giant_mtb]

Quite the, uh, dip they seem to be in now, though.

[MrH]

Oops, someone just got caught in the short game

https://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-model-3-teardown-profitability/

And yet they're burning through cash at an incredible rate and CapEx has completely stalled.  Gross margin is meaningless if your net is massively negative.

Munro's analysis assumes industry standards for productivity and efficiency.  Tesla is anything but industry standard in these areas.

[r0tor]

Haters gotta hate -lol-

[MrH]

Haters gotta hate -lol-

Good talk bro.

[r0tor]

Good talk bro.

I can't help you can't figure out that a company going through massive growth isn't going to turn a profit until production catches up.

So hate away

[GoCougs]

I can't help you can't figure out that a company going through massive growth isn't going to turn a profit until production catches up.

So hate away

You rarely see it because investors would never tolerate a Tesla-like performance from a non-Silicon Valley-esque entity.

It's not hate - it's facts, data and logic - PedoGate just makes it a bit more entertaining .

[r0tor]

You rarely see it because investors would never tolerate a Tesla-like performance from a non-Silicon Valley-esque entity.

It's not hate - it's facts, data and logic - PedoGate just makes it a bit more entertaining .

Wall Street actually favors companies taking on debt for growth

[12,000 RPM]

Wall Street actually favors companies taking on debt for growth

Worked for Toys R Us

[r0tor]

Worked for Toys R Us

Right... Because Toys R Us was a growth stage company

[MrH]

Lol, please, r0tor, tell us more about how borrowing against your 401k to buy a Tesla.

This has SPIN Hall of Fame potential.

[SJ_GTI]

And yet they're burning through cash at an incredible rate and CapEx has completely stalled.  Gross margin is meaningless if your net is massively negative.

Munro's analysis assumes industry standards for productivity and efficiency.  Tesla is anything but industry standard in these areas.

Its a good point about it assuming industry standards and therefore may not be applicable to Tesla. That being said, if we presume that this company is right (and not just trying to sell their analysis) it is still interesting because it shows that, with the proper design, building a nice electric vehicle with a long range and an affordable is completely achievable for the industry leaders (Toyota, GM, Honda, etc...).

[r0tor]

Lol, please, r0tor, tell us more about how borrowing against your 401k to buy a Tesla.

This has SPIN Hall of Fame potential.

Oh this is great...

If your philosophy was ever implemented, most large capital companies/industries would never exist.  Oh you want to sell a car?  Well do you have enough funds up front to design the car, design the manufacturing facility, and then build the facility?  What, your only source of income is the product you want to sell??  Nope, getting investors and financing is not an option... Oh your fucked...

Then you go on to stage 2.  Wait, your selling a car and you want to build another model... and you don't want to wait 20 years for your current model to pay off the R&D and manufacturing facility for this new model because by that time all your competitors would have filled the market segment? What the fuck are you thinking?

[MrH]

Oh this is great...

If your philosophy was ever implemented, most large capital companies/industries would never exist.  Oh you want to sell a car?  Well do you have enough funds up front to design the car, design the manufacturing facility, and then build the facility?  What, your only source of income is the product you want to sell??  Nope, getting investors and financing is not an option... Oh your fucked...

Then you go on to stage 2.  Wait, your selling a car and you want to build another model... and you don't want to wait 20 years for your current model to pay off the R&D and manufacturing facility for this new model because by that time all your competitors would have filled the market segment? What the fuck are you thinking?

Well, you don't disappoint, that's for sure.  r0tor talking finance is pretty much guaranteed entertainment  

[r0tor]

Put your money where your mouth is and short Tesla... From your narrow mind it should be a sure thing since you claim they don't know how to manufacture, don't know how to run a business, and can't make money on their cars -shrug-

[GoCougs]

Wall Street actually favors companies taking on debt for growth

Not if it keeps the company in perpetual red, and most "large capital companies" self-fund their growth - Boeing, Apple, Caterpillar, Toyota, etc. They ain't taking loans and going deep into the red, and those that were in the red in their beginnings, weren't there for 7+ years like Tesla. They had to perform for investors, and do so quickly.

Take (declining) Model X and S sales, the theoretical 250,000/year Model 3 sales, 30% gross margin and ASP of say $50,000, and one gets ~$4.3B revenue and a net of ~$1.3B based on Tesla's (record) Q2 loss of $780MM. So, not bad. Of course Telsa has to first reliable both sell and produce the Model 3 in those volumes, and both prospects look very unlikely at present.

[r0tor]

Not if it keeps the company in perpetual red, and most "large capital companies" self-fund their growth - Boeing, Apple, Caterpillar, Toyota, etc. They ain't taking loans and going deep into the red, and those that were in the red in their beginnings, weren't there for 7+ years like Tesla. They had to perform for investors, and do so quickly.

Take (declining) Model X and S sales, the theoretical 250,000/year Model 3 sales, 30% gross margin and ASP of say $50,000, and one gets ~$4.3B revenue and a net of ~$1.3B based on Tesla's (record) Q2 loss of $780MM. So, not bad. Of course Telsa has to first reliable both sell and produce the Model 3 in those volumes, and both prospects look very unlikely at present.

Which one of those companies are startup growth companies?

[GoCougs]

Which one of those companies are startup growth companies?

They all were, at some point.

Tesla's not a startup - they've been in business since 2003 and has been producing the Model S since summer of 2012.

Perhaps research the first 8-15 years of a Microsoft, Apple, Dell, etc., and see if they lost huge $$$ every year (and ever more by the year).

[r0tor]

They all were, at some point.

Tesla's not a startup - they've been in business since 2003 and has been producing the Model S since summer of 2012.

Perhaps research the first 8-15 years of a Microsoft, Apple, Dell, etc., and see if they lost huge $$$ every year (and ever more by the year).

Oh right, let's compare a new and expanding company to established companies - with the caveat that they were in the same position 40 years ago

Last I checked, Microsoft and Apple didn't build out factories, assembly plants, and a nation wide charging station in their first 8 years

[GoCougs]

Oh right, let's compare a new and expanding company to established companies - with the caveat that they were in the same position 40 years ago

Last I checked, Microsoft and Apple didn't build out factories, assembly plants, and a nation wide charging station in their first 8 years

There is no defense of Tesla's economic situation, and you have to take responsibility for that.

[r0tor]

Wall Street would be the ultimate judge of Tesla and its economic situation... Seems like they approve

[12,000 RPM]

Wall Street would be the ultimate judge of Tesla and its economic situation... Seems like they approve

We will revisit this in time

[ChrisV]

Got to ride in my buddy's new Model 3 that he picked up this week. Seems quite nice, with good fit and finish and build quality. Quiet and quick. The interior is much nicer to be in than pictures might suggest.