2017 Mazda MX-5 Miata RF Vs. 2017 Toyota 86

[GoCougs]

Yeah the whole point of that segment was to make fun of the guy for being a shitty driver lol.

Uh, I got that - Tave didn't.

[BimmerM3]

Uh, I got that - Tave didn't.

Believe it or not, I was agreeing with you.

[Tave]

Cougs are you sure a Hellcat is faster than a Miata in a straight line? I'm just not convinced, maybe you should post some more stats.

[12,000 RPM]

You own a 140 up civic... And specifically passed up the Si as well...

And the Miata is fun anywhere.

Yes, I went into that to see if less was more. Turns out it wasn't- more is more. Si was a non-starter; I need torque. I preferred the way the 1.8 delivered power, even if it had less of it.

And if the Miata is fun anywhere, why do you regret your build? Your Miata is like everything good about the Miata turned up to 11. Doesn't add up

The Miata is also set up to beat the snot out of it all the time. Between the gearing, linear powerband, eagerness of the throttle and transmission, and overall balance of the car, you're constantly driving all-out and actually hitting your upper limit.

Depending on your personality, an adult driver probably isn't brake-torquing the Camcorder and roasting the front tires to squeeze out C&D acceleration figures between stoplights.

The great thing about the Camry is you don't have to roast the front tires to get that performance. The 5-60 time is a good bit quicker than the Miata's and I'm sure rolls from higher speeds are even worse.

Obviously that's not all that matters for driving fun.... but it matters. Nothing about the Miata would be ruined with some more HP.

[12,000 RPM]

I will say this- the ND isn't really "slow" per se.... it's not far off from my Z which I deem to be the benchmark of acceptable speed.

[Tave]

The great thing about the Camry is you don't have to roast the front tires to get that performance.

Oh yeah you do. Although C&D clocked the Camry V6 @ 5.8 sec 0-60 and 6.1 sec 5-60, other publications come in at like 6.3 or 6.5 sec on their 0-60 runs. C&D abuses cars like they're Catholic altar-boys.

[MX793]

Yes, I went into that to see if less was more. Turns out it wasn't- more is more. Si was a non-starter; I need torque. I preferred the way the 1.8 delivered power, even if it had less of it.

Funny thing is, the K20 CSi actually makes as much, or slightly more, power/torque as the R18 at lower RPMs.  When you normalize each torque curve by peak, the K20 appears to be much softer on the bottom, but that's only relative to itself.  Relative to the R18, it pulls just as hard or harder down low, and then has a whole bunch more north of 5500 RPM after the R18 has signed off.

[68_427]

Yeah the K20 in my friend's rsx-s never felt low on torque even with 3 adults in it.

[Xer0]

Funny thing is, the K20 CSi actually makes as much, or slightly more, power/torque as the R18 at lower RPMs.  When you normalize each torque curve by peak, the K20 appears to be much softer on the bottom, but that's only relative to itself.  Relative to the R18, it pulls just as hard or harder down low, and then has a whole bunch more north of 5500 RPM after the R18 has signed off.

I can't speak for the manual cars, but R18 auto civics have a pretty touchy throttle that makes it feel like the car is more powerful than it actually is around town.

[Rich]

And if the Miata is fun anywhere, why do you regret your build? Your Miata is like everything good about the Miata turned up to 11.

Because he changed what makes the Miata fun everywhere. He added grip

Watch that second motortrend in demand clip I posted at the 10min mark

I wish we could have a big carspin gtg and ride in each other's cars on some backroads to see what kind of driving we all like.

It's like the difference in the SR71 vs an F16. The 71 is fast and badass as fuck but the guy piloting the 16 has a bigger grin on their face

Cougs has always made it known he's all about higher limits and straightline speed. I'm much different. I want the feeling of that Ferrari TD12 but at 45mph and not 105mph on the backroads. Unfortunately no 4cyl is going to put out the sound that thing does

[Xer0]

Sounds like you're proposing a car spin dragon meet.  Hmm

[Rich]

I'm game. It's only 4-5 hours away

[GoCougs]

Oh yeah you do. Although C&D clocked the Camry V6 @ 5.8 sec 0-60 and 6.1 sec 5-60, other publications come in at like 6.3 or 6.5 sec on their 0-60 runs. C&D abuses cars like they're Catholic altar-boys.

Nah, I've owned them. There is nothing to "abuse" particularly no clutch. The best 0-60 times come simply from mashing the throttle on dry pavement.

[CaminoRacer]

I can't speak for the manual cars, but R18 auto civics have a pretty touchy throttle that makes it feel like the car is more powerful than it actually is around town.

That appears to be super common nowadays. People think their car is super fast solely because they're actually gunning it without even realizing it.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

155 hp? Will never ever ever ever understand the draw of this class of car.

If both of these just had like 20-30% more power they'd be perfect but as is... nah

[MrH]

All you guys ripping on the Miata....have you actually driven one?

[Rich]

I plan on getting sporty into a miata and 86 within the next year for a good drive

[Tave]

Nah, I've owned them. There is nothing to "abuse" particularly no clutch. The best 0-60 times come simply from mashing the throttle on dry pavement.

Everyone has owned them. C&D isn't running 1/2 second or faster than everyone else by "mashing" the throttle better. They're torque braking the snot out of it which most definitely causes excess wear and tear on the transmission.

[Rich]

You can't brake torque a 5-60 run 😂😂😂😂😂😂

No other mags do that test that I'm aware of

[Tave]

I'm talking about the 0-60 run.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

All you guys ripping on the Miata....have you actually driven one?

I drove one back in the early 90s. NA? It had pop up head lights. I was unimpressed! My '85 MR2 drove better AND felt peppier. I liked the S2000 I drove about ten years later. It was better but it didn't hold a candle to the '99 Z28 I had at the time. Different strokes......... 

[Rich]

Oh yeah you do. Although C&D clocked the Camry V6 @ 5.8 sec 0-60 and 6.1 sec 5-60, other publications come in at like 6.3 or 6.5 sec on their 0-60 runs. C&D abuses cars like they're Catholic altar-boys.

Oh really

[Tave]

Oh really

Yeah really.  Like I said, everyone else's 0-60 run is .5 sec or greater slower. They are obviously using a different launch technique to get that 5.8 number.

The 5-60 mark is somewhat interesting, but like you say, no one else does it. And not only do we not have other data points, C&D is usually pretty vague about their methodology and parameters for that test. 

[Rich]

The FWD midsizer V6s are usually very traction limited so a brake torque 0-60 won't be appreciably faster than a 5-60 street start like a normal guy would do on the street.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-does-c-d-test-cars-acceleration-and-braking-page-2

I'm with you, the Miata and the like are a more visceral experience and more fun. They feel faster for sure. More sensation of speed. But those V6camcords are quick

Hell the V6 8AT Camaro rental I had felt as fast as my 2011 Mustang GT. But the Camaro was a snooze fest

[Rich]

I went back to look at the 5-60 numbers recently. The 86 gets there in 7.3 I think. The RX8 was at 8. I think the Miata is around 7. I'm not sure what the S2000 was.

[MX793]

I went back to look at the 5-60 numbers recently. The 86 gets there in 7.3 I think. The RX8 was at 8. I think the Miata is around 7. I'm not sure what the S2000 was.

ND is in the 6.6-6.8 range.

IIRC, the S2K has the greatest discrepancy between 0-60 and 5-60 of any car C&D has tested.

[MrH]

For the AP2:

0-60 5.4
5-60 6.9

[12,000 RPM]

AP1 S2K does 5-60 in 7.3s in C&D's hands so it's more like 8 seconds in real life

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2000-honda-s2000-archived-test-review

Feels every bit of it too, it's a momentum car to a fault IMO.

[Rich]

5-60 isn't too hard to mimic. Just requires one shift. The S2000 shifts pretty well so I think any of us here should be able to at least get within a tenth or two

[Tave]

The FWD midsizer V6s are usually very traction limited so a brake torque 0-60 won't be appreciably faster than a 5-60 street start like a normal guy would do on the street.

Most modern cars can't hold 5mph in gear and many don't even have a 5mph indicator on the speedo. I think these 5 mph rollouts are more or less a myth in the real world. People are either gunning it from a stop or rolling on throttle at more like 10-20 mph.