2017 Mazda MX-5 Miata RF Vs. 2017 Toyota 86

[MX793]

Most modern cars can't hold 5mph in gear and many don't even have a 5mph indicator on the speedo. I think these 5 mph rollouts are more or less a myth in the real world. People are either gunning it from a stop or rolling on throttle at more like 10-20 mph.

?!

Idling with the clutch out in 1st in my Mustang is just under 5 mph, which the car will happily do on flat ground without stalling.  Same for my '11 Mustang, my 5MT Mazda3, and my 5MT 240SX.  I could take off from a stop on flat ground in any of those cars by just easing out the clutch.  Anything with an automatic can definitely creep at 5 mph.

C&D instruments the cars up with recording equipment that displays speed more accurately than the speedo.  They can tell if they're going 5 mph even if 10 is the lowest mark on the factory analog gauge.

[SJ_GTI]

I could start off with my S4 just using the clutch (no throttle), haven't tried it though with my Golf (less torque off idle + really abrupt clutch engagement). I can say for sure it can idle in first gear once engaged though. Next time I do it I will have to see what speed I am actually going.

[Tave]

?!

Idling with the clutch out in 1st in my Mustang is just under 5 mph, which the car will happily do on flat ground without stalling.  Same for my '11 Mustang, my 5MT Mazda3, and my 5MT 240SX.  I could take off from a stop on flat ground in any of those cars by just easing out the clutch.  Anything with an automatic can definitely creep at 5 mph.

C&D instruments the cars up with recording equipment that displays speed more accurately than the speedo.  They can tell if they're going 5 mph even if 10 is the lowest mark on the factory analog gauge.

"Idling... in 1st...is just under 5mph"

So in other words, 5mph is just above the point you'll need to slip your clutch or stall? Yeah I get it.

And yeah, an auto will creep along at about 5mph with your foot off the gas. How many hooligans do you see stoplight racing with this MO:

Light turns green
Hooligan takes his foot off the brake, doesn't apply any gas
Hooligan waits till the auto starts crawling along at 5mph and mashes the gas.

No one at all.

[BimmerM3]

I could start off with my S4 just using the clutch (no throttle), haven't tried it though with my Golf (less torque off idle + really abrupt clutch engagement). I can say for sure it can idle in first gear once engaged though. Next time I do it I will have to see what speed I am actually going.

I've never driven a manual that I couldn't launch without throttle input on flat ground. At least that I've tried it in.

[BimmerM3]

"Idling... in 1st...is just under 5mph"

So in other words, 5mph is just above the point you'll need to slip your clutch or stall? Yeah I get it.

And yeah, an auto will creep along at about 5mph with your foot off the gas. How many hooligans do you see stoplight racing with this MO:

Light turns green
Hooligan takes his foot off the brake, doesn't apply any gas
Hooligan waits till the auto starts crawling along at 5mph and mashes the gas.

No one at all.

It's not about the exact 5-60 speeds - it's just a different basis for comparison than a torque-braking or clutch-dumping 0-60 start.

[Tave]

I could launch my '86 4Runner by slipping the clutch. Whoopee. You can't maintain a constant speed by doing that and it isn't particularly kind to your drivetrain. I'm not sure what the point is here, are people "real-world racing" MT cars by clutch-slipping launches w/o applying any throttle?

[BimmerM3]

I could launch my '86 4Runner by slipping the clutch. Whoopee. You can't maintain a constant speed by doing that and it isn't particularly kind to your drivetrain. I'm not sure what the point is here, are people "real-world racing" MT cars by clutch-slipping launches w/o applying any throttle?

Bruh, chill out. It was just a side conversation.

The point is that, for the purposes of comparing two vehicles (i.e. not exact times), 5-60 is probably a better indicator of which car is faster in the real world. Even if most hard starts on the street really are from a stop, most people aren't going to be clutch dumping or brake torquing, so a statistic that eliminates that particular factor has significance. 

[Tave]

It's not about the exact 5-60 speeds - it's just a different basis for comparison than a torque-braking or clutch-dumping 0-60 start.

Bruh, chill out. It was just a side conversation.

The point is that, for the purposes of comparing two vehicles (i.e. not exact times), 5-60 is probably a better indicator of which car is faster in the real world. Even if most hard starts on the street really are from a stop, most people aren't going to be clutch dumping or brake torquing, so a statistic that eliminates that particular factor has significance. 

We don't really know what they're doing with the clutch, brake, or throttle on these rollouts. We know it's suppose to "more closely mimic real world spirited driving," but it doesn't seem to actually correspond to anything people do in real life.

Here's a novel idea: run the 0-60 with torque braking or clutch dumping and run it without. The latter will be how most people actually drive the cars.

[BimmerM3]

We don't really know what they're doing with the clutch, brake, or throttle on these rollouts. We know it's suppose to "more closely mimic real world spirited driving," but it doesn't seem to actually correspond to anything people do in real life.

Here's a novel idea: run the 0-60 with torque braking or clutch dumping and run it without. The latter will be how most people actually drive the cars.

Since most owners will seldom subject their cars to brutal launch techniques, we also perform what we call a street-start acceleration test from 5 to 60 mph. While rolling with the car in gear, we floor the accelerator at 5 mph and shift quickly at the optimal shift point.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-does-c-d-test-cars-acceleration-and-braking-page-2



Even without clutch dumping, there's going to be variance in how quickly the individual driver releases the clutch.

[Tave]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-does-c-d-test-cars-acceleration-and-braking-page-2



Even without clutch dumping, there's going to be variance in how quickly the individual driver releases the clutch.

Yes, that's all they say about it. No comment on whether any clutch slippage is allowed (it by necessity would have to be on some cars), no comment on whether they're allowed to feather the throttle/brake, etc... they wrote 3 paragraphs about their methodology for 0-60 and then give you a single sentence for 5-60. They have always been purposefully vague about this test and the only major publication that does it.

Yeah sure, different drivers will get different results. As will different ambient temperatures, elevations, tires, engine mileage, etc...

[12,000 RPM]

I am pretty sure any modern stickshift car can roll w/o clutch slip at 5 MPH.

[Rich]

#triggered

[Tave]

I am pretty sure any modern stickshift car can roll w/o clutch slip at 5 MPH.

I'm not so sure. My Miata is geared extremely short and is still only like 350rpms off-stall at a steady 5 mph on flat ground.

With the amount of power cars make, and the tendency of automakers to push 1-2 as high as they can to game the 0-60 numbers, it wouldn't surprise me at all if cars were slipping at that low a speed.

[Tave]

#triggered

Seriously? It's all good man we're just talking cars. I'm not taking offense to anyone and I hope y'all aren't either. Let's leave triggerings for the politics subforum where they belong.

[Rich]

Seriously? It's all good man we're just talking cars. I'm not taking offense to anyone and I hope y'all aren't either. Let's leave triggerings for the politics subforum where they belong.

😂  It's ok man. I get triggered over steering feedback. Real world acceleration testing procedures is yours

[Tave]

😂  It's ok man. I get triggered over steering feedback. Real world acceleration testing procedures is yours

[GoCougs]

Everyone has owned them. C&D isn't running 1/2 second or faster than everyone else by "mashing" the throttle better. They're torque braking the snot out of it which most definitely causes excess wear and tear on the transmission.

Hard to say if they "torque brake" but in general, for most tests, I'm guessing not. And if they do, it doesn't matter:

Firstly, torque braking only works for cars with limited power - break torque a car with decent power, like a Camry V6, and it will result in excess wheel spin.

Second, many modern cars will delay throttle for a wee bit once the brake is released - the 7G Accord and the G37 both do this - both achieve their best 0-60 times just by mashing the throttle.

Third, torque braking is no more strain on the engine, transmission and drive train and car in general than hard acceleration (provided a wheel isn't spinning). The engine just spins against a slipping torque converter.

[MX793]

"Idling... in 1st...is just under 5mph"

So in other words, 5mph is just above the point you'll need to slip your clutch or stall? Yeah I get it.

No, I mean that I can idle along in 1st gear at like 4.5 mph with no risk of stall at this speed barring I encounter a fairly steep incline (which you won't find at a drag strip).  According to my speedometer (which does indicate 5 mph), I'm going maybe 3 mph.  Via math (gear ratios, RPMs, and tire sizes), I'm going ~4.5.  You'll find few cars geared so tall in 1st gear that they can't idle at 5 mph or less without slipping the clutch or stalling.  I'm thinking maybe the ZR1 Corvette might fall into this bucket.  There are a few that might be right at 5 (GT350, assuming the same 750 RPM idle my car has) or a hair above.  Close enough for government work.

And yeah, an auto will creep along at about 5mph with your foot off the gas. How many hooligans do you see stoplight racing with this MO:

Light turns green
Hooligan takes his foot off the brake, doesn't apply any gas
Hooligan waits till the auto starts crawling along at 5mph and mashes the gas.

No one at all.

I get what you're saying in that the 5-60 also unrealistic.  Real world "sporty" launch from a light will be somewhere in between.  5-60 is supposed to give you some idea of what it will do without a high-RPM, tire screeching, clutch burning (or brake torquing) launch.  5-60 is probably closer to real world than a drag strip launch, as it combines a gentle, non-tire-shredding launch with otherwise full throttle acceleration.

[GoCougs]

All you guys ripping on the Miata....have you actually driven one?

I haven't!

[Rich]

I haven't!

Come on down cougs. You can drive mine with the 185 section all seasons. It's a hoot

[SJ_GTI]

I've never driven a manual that I couldn't launch without throttle input on flat ground. At least that I've tried it in.

Yeah I could do it on an old A4 1.8T (nevar lost) w/AWD and the MKV GTI as well, I have just never tried on my current car. Since seeing this thread has it on my mind I will probably try it when I leave work today. 

[MX793]

Hard to say if they "torque brake" but in general, for most tests, I'm guessing not. And if they do, it doesn't matter:

Firstly, torque braking only works for cars with limited power - break torque a car with decent power, like a Camry V6, and it will result in excess wheel spin.

Second, many modern cars will delay throttle for a wee bit once the brake is released - the 7G Accord and the G37 both do this - both achieve their best 0-60 times just by mashing the throttle.

Third, torque braking is no more strain on the engine, transmission and drive train and car in general than hard acceleration (provided a wheel isn't spinning). The engine just spins against a slipping torque converter.

Brake torquing can work for any car for the same reason they put some revs on the clock when launching a manual.  They don't tend to launch with as many revs in the MT V6 FWDs because you'll obliterate the tires, but they aren't jumping off the clutch at idle or 200 RPM above.  C&D got their best launch out of a 6MT V6 Accord doing an 1800 RPM launch.  For their 6AT Mustang test, they brake torqued it to 1500 RPM for the best start.  And launch control on any number of high powered cars tends to hold the revs at a couple thousand RPM.

[GoCougs]

Most modern cars can't hold 5mph in gear and many don't even have a 5mph indicator on the speedo. I think these 5 mph rollouts are more or less a myth in the real world. People are either gunning it from a stop or rolling on throttle at more like 10-20 mph.

Nah, you're overthinking it.

You're right that it is virtually impossible to hold an exact speed in a car if but for nothing else resolution and accuracy of the speedometer, ergo, they use something else.

So how do they do it? They use an in-car performance computer that uses GPS that is accurate to fractions of 1 mph. For 5-60, they get close enough, say 3-4 mph, and then hit the throttle, and then only measure the 5-60 time. Ditto for braking and higher speed rolling starts.

[GoCougs]

#triggered

The haunting of the Charger Hellcat.

[BimmerM3]

Hard to say if they "torque brake" but in general, for most tests, I'm guessing not. And if they do, it doesn't matter:

lol I literally just linked to the page where you can find that out.

The technique used with automatic transmissions is called brake torquing. With the left foot pressed securely on the brake, holding the car in place, the right foot squeezes down on the accelerator and the car is launched by releasing the brake pedal. That almost always results in quicker times than just flooring the car from a standstill.

[GoCougs]

Brake torquing can work for any car for the same reason they put some revs on the clock when launching a manual.  They don't tend to launch with as many revs in the MT V6 FWDs because you'll obliterate the tires, but they aren't jumping off the clutch at idle or 200 RPM above.  C&D got their best launch out of a 6MT V6 Accord doing an 1800 RPM launch.  For their 6AT Mustang test, they brake torqued it to 1500 RPM for the best start.  And launch control on any number of high powered cars tends to hold the revs at a couple thousand RPM.

Brake torquing only applies to torque converter ATs. MTs, SMGs and DSGs, are not related. The primary difference of course is converter vs. clutch, and they are most definitely complete difference devices, particularly that a converter has a stall speed and lockup (which differs by model) and it always connected to the transmission (and thus turning the forward pump).

Some cars it works but my bet is for most modern cars it won't for the reasons I outlined. Either way, it does not "abuse" the car as Tave claimed. There's simply nothing to abuse.

[GoCougs]

lol I literally just linked to the page where you can find that out.

Well, at least for the 7G Accord V6 and G37x, brake torquing = slower time, as the car cuts throttle for a split second as the brake is released (some mags use the 1' rollout for this and other reasons, which IMO isn't legit on the street) and in powerful front drivers that that does not happen, it can result in excess wheel spin.

[MX793]

Brake torquing only applies to torque converter ATs. MTs, SMGs and DSGs, are not related. The primary difference of course is converter vs. clutch, and they are most definitely complete difference devices, particularly that a converter has a stall speed and lockup (which differs by model) and it always connected to the transmission (and thus turning the forward pump).

I was talking about traditional AT cars with launch control, like the C7 Corvette or Jag F-Type.  The slushies don't hold the revs as high as the DSGs/SMGs, but they still build some revs before releasing the car.  Here's an 8AT C7 Grand Sport launch.  The launch control holds revs at ~2000 RPM until the brake is dropped.  If any car has sufficient grunt to not need revs at launch, it's a Corvette.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF-451Fy13Y

Or the F-Type R, which likewise does about 2000 RPM before launching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPwXI-ixtnA

[GoCougs]

Launch control is not brake torquing though. There, they are treating the torque converter sorta like a clutch (letting it stall high during the launch) and then modulating in a bit of wheel spin/TC, and then of course not cutting the throttle at the release of the brake.

[Laconian]

They completely disengage the output shaft from the torque converter? That sounds... dubious/not useful.