Pet Peeve - Indicatior Lights witn NO INDICATOR

[2o6]

One of my pet peeves is seeing rear lamp clusters that have space for signal lights, but HAVE NO SIGNAL.


The current model Honda Fit has space for an amber signal, and in other countries, the single white space is split between a reverse lamp and a signal lamp.




The Malibu? It's got a space for a signal lamp, but once again, the brake light doubles as the indicator.



The Cruze sedan's outer white dead panel always looks slightly tinted amber, but once again: brake light is indicator.



BUT THE CRUZE HATCH HAS REAR SIGNALS






But the WORST offender is the 2016 Tiguan. There's a goddamn amber space in the lamp cluster, but there's NO light and the brake light is the indicating light! WHAT IS THE POINT.




(Yes, this is silly. I know.)

[shp4man]

First year for amber turn signals was 1963. I personally like the pre 63 white lenses for the front signals on the old truck.

[MX793]

Amber turn signals are required in certain markets (Europe for certain, not sure about Asia).  Most automakers prefer not to use them in America even when they have made the space for them.  I'm sure there's a cost factor.  You already need dual-brightness lamps in the back for tail lights and brake lights, having to add an additional amber bulb for the turn signal when you can just re-purpose one of the brake lamps is an added expense.  Obviously, some cars with red indicators still use a dedicated bulb for that function, in which case I'd chalk it up to aesthetics.  I think designers feel that the added orange color looks busier/messier than just red and white/clear on the back of the car.  Granted, with today's LEDs, you can have amber LEDs that don't appear amber when not illuminated.

[2o6]

Amber turn signals are required in certain markets (Europe for certain, not sure about Asia).  Most automakers prefer not to use them in America even when they have made the space for them.  I'm sure there's a cost factor.  You already need dual-brightness lamps in the back for tail lights and brake lights, having to add an additional amber bulb for the turn signal when you can just re-purpose one of the brake lamps is an added expense.  Obviously, some cars with red indicators still use a dedicated bulb for that function, in which case I'd chalk it up to aesthetics.  I think designers feel that the added orange color looks busier/messier than just red and white/clear on the back of the car.  Granted, with today's LEDs, you can have amber LEDs that don't appear amber when not illuminated.

I know why they do it.



I just think it's dumb.

[93JC]

*waits for ChrisV to enter the thread and go on his usual tirade about this*

[2o6]

*waits for ChrisV to enter the thread and go on his usual tirade about this*

And that tirade is usually bullshit, design/engineering is a dance and is a lot less monolithic than one would think. Some shit is truly half-assed and rushed, etc.

[12,000 RPM]

The best is when you are following someone with no brake pedal discipline with a shared blinker/brake light. Are you turning left? Right? Putting on a light show? Bye Felicia

[12,000 RPM]

*waits for ChrisV to enter the thread and go on his usual tirade about this*

If you don't like something about a car, you're wrong, because I autocrossed a Pinto in the 70s *insert scanned film photo*

[MX793]

And that tirade is usually bullshit, design/engineering is a dance and is a lot less monolithic than one would think. Some shit is truly half-assed and rushed, etc.

Opting to use the brake lamp instead of a dedicated amber indicator, even when space has already been made for one, to save cost is no more half-assed than using blanks to fill holes for switchgear not equipped on a particular model rather than designing unique dashes for every switchgear layout.  When you build 100,000 cars per year and can save a dollar per by not having to fit some extra bulbs, the savings adds up.  And it's not like the car functions worse for it.  It still has a turn signal.  Half-assed engineering is when you knowingly compromise functionality in the name saving time/money.  Stuff like routing too many circuits through the same fuse and banking on "what are the odds somebody is going to use ALL of those functions at the same time?".

[2o6]

I think the Tiguan's is probably too narrow for a US DOT spec signal lamp. (Size is the reason why the sequential signals on the RX and NX are nixed from the US cars)

[MrH]

I'm with you on this. It's just lazy.

[MX793]

I think the Tiguan's is probably too narrow for a US DOT spec signal lamp. (Size is the reason why the sequential signals on the RX and NX are nixed from the US cars)

NHTSA regulates luminous area, not geometry.  2200 mm^2 is the regulation minimum size for a passenger car in the US (which, incidentally, is slightly smaller than the regulation size for motorcycles).  That may be achieved via single lamp or multiple, smaller lamps adding up to the minimum luminous area.

[2o6]

NHTSA regulates luminous area, not geometry.  2200 mm^2 is the regulation minimum size for a passenger car in the US (which, incidentally, is slightly smaller than the regulation size for motorcycles).  That may be achieved via single lamp or multiple, smaller lamps adding up to the minimum luminous area.

Idk that strip is really small in person. And it's probably LED in other markets.

[Soup DeVille]

I always thought amber turn signals had a tinge of pretentiousness when on cars that were designed for the domestic US market. Back when Pontiac had "Berlinetta" trims of the Trans Am, the distinguishing features were pseudo-BBS wheels and amber turn signals.

As far as design goes, amber and red just don't go together very well, and rarely coordinate with the color of the body. All red creates a smoother appearance in most cases.

For pure practical purposes, amber turns make a lot of sense.

[MX793]

Idk that strip is really small in person. And it's probably LED in other markets.

The lenses have a diffusing effect, increasing the "luminous area".  Individual incandescent bulbs aren't 2200 mm^2 until the lens diffuses the light.  A .75" x 5" signal lens would more than meet NHTSA size requirements.  Hard to scale it, but the Tig's lens looks about that size.

And Lexus blaming the federal regulations is a cop out.  They could have gotten the sequentials to work if they adjusted the LED sequencing.  Certainly on the rear, there's enough area there that they probably wouldn't have even had to adjust the sequencing.  Audi manages it with a turn signal that is not any larger, physically.  They dropped the feature to save cost and then just blamed it on US regulations to make it seem like they weren't decontenting cars to save a buck.

[2o6]

How is that a cost issue? Wouldn't that already be programmed into the BCM?

[MX793]

How is that a cost issue? Wouldn't that already be programmed into the BCM?

They can use a simpler module and/or wiring harness.  Instead of sequencing power to LEDs over multiple channels, they wire them all into a single channel of power.

[GoCougs]

Even small changes - just programming, presuming HW stays the same - are relatively expensive. A lot of the expense comes from documentation - anything from owner's manuals, to maintenance/repair manuals used by dealers, to archiving software revisions, to manufacturing instructions - it all adds up. Any company that makes a widget, even as complicated as a car, watches each and every penny.

[ChrisV]

Lazy would be designing one system that works in all markets. It's not lazy to design two entirely separate systems for separate markets. I would think it would also cost more to tool up for two separate systems for the same car, rather than just one that has it's cost spread out over every example. It really comes down to the fact that the designers want it that way, as it would take no more effort to design a slightly larger area for the amber turn signals that work in every market.. If you think this is a tirade and starting a goddamn thread about it is NOT, then I don't know what to tell you.

[2o6]

Lazy would be designing one system that works in all markets. It's not lazy to design two entirely separate systems for separate markets. I would think it would also cost more to tool up for two separate systems for the same car, rather than just one that has it's cost spread out over every example. It really comes down to the fact that the designers want it that way, as it would take no more effort to design a slightly larger area for the amber turn signals that work in every market.. If you think this is a tirade and starting a goddamn thread about it is NOT, then I don't know what to tell you.

It wouldn't be lazy if they had two totally different lamps for either car, one sans cut out for an amber lamp.

But they don't.


So it's lazy and cheap looking.

[Soup DeVille]

He's right though; the lazy route would be to design a taillight that conforms to all specs in all markets, and have only one set of part numbers, technical manuals, assembly procedures, etc.. to deal with.

It would arguably also be the best route.

[MrH]

I'll be honest: Any time I see brake lights used as turn signals, I'm just reminded of the shit the american OEMs made in the early 90s.  I don't know why, but that's my gut reaction every time.

[CaminoRacer]

I installed a third brake light in the El Camino so that the turn signal thing vs braking thing wouldn't be confused as much.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I always thought amber turn signals had a tinge of pretentiousness when on cars that were designed for the domestic US market. Back when Pontiac had "Berlinetta" trims of the Trans Am, the distinguishing features were pseudo-BBS wheels and amber turn signals.

You're thinking about The Trans Am GTA. The Berlinetta was a Camaro........ 

[Soup DeVille]

You're thinking about The Trans Am GTA. The Berlinetta was a Camaro........ 

Same same.

[Soup DeVille]

I installed a third brake light in the El Camino so that the turn signal thing vs braking thing wouldn't be confused as much.

It is something I've worried about on the Caddy.

Lots of drivers have rarely ever seen a non-CHMSL car anymore.

[Morris Minor]

I must have lived in Georgia too long: what are these "turn signals" of which you all speak?