EVs

[GoCougs]

AFAIK, Waymo leads the pack by a wide margin. Their stuff actually sorta works but it took 10+ years, billions of $$$, millions of miles driven and availability is still profoundly limited (= a few mapped and validated areas). The hitch is of course the vehicles are still hugely expensive and the current mapping/validating process is not scalable.

My hunch is Waymo knew that people aren't too interested in owing an AD vehicle, even if it actually worked well and was affordable and scalable. The US culture of driving is decades away from any sort of titanic shift IMO, ergo, Waymo's concentration on fleet, which has other applications (trucking, local delivery).

All told, I still don't think it will really ever work en masse due to scale - whether that's the tedious mapping/validation process, national homogenization of road design and traffic laws, or some sort of analogous federal air traffic control process.

[ChrisV]

Hold the phone! I"m agreeing with Cougs on something! Is that the four horsemen I hear?

Not sure if it'll be *impossible* to do en masse (never say never, right) but it's damn unlikely for a long time. I mean as a car enthusiast I'd love to have non-enthusiasts that would rather be on their phones stay away from the controls of a car, and there are times I'd love to be able to go to the pub after driving around and have my car take me home safely, but I really don't see it happening in my lifetime.

[CaminoRacer]

Hold the phone! I"m agreeing with Cougs on something! Is that the four horsemen I hear?

Not sure if it'll be *impossible* to do en masse (never say never, right) but it's damn unlikely for a long time. I mean as a car enthusiast I'd love to have non-enthusiasts that would rather be on their phones stay away from the controls of a car, and there are times I'd love to be able to go to the pub after driving around and have my car take me home safely, but I really don't see it happening in my lifetime.

I would love it if the rest of the public had safe self driving cars and didn't crash into me. But let me drive my own car still

[Morris Minor]

AFAIK, Waymo leads the pack by a wide margin. Their stuff actually sorta works but it took 10+ years, billions of $$$, millions of miles driven and availability is still profoundly limited (= a few mapped and validated areas). The hitch is of course the vehicles are still hugely expensive and the current mapping/validating process is not scalable.

My hunch is Waymo knew that people aren't too interested in owing an AD vehicle, even if it actually worked well and was affordable and scalable. The US culture of driving is decades away from any sort of titanic shift IMO, ergo, Waymo's concentration on fleet, which has other applications (trucking, local delivery).

All told, I still don't think it will really ever work en masse due to scale - whether that's the tedious mapping/validation process, national homogenization of road design and traffic laws, or some sort of analogous federal air traffic control process.

Systems that rely on detailed mapping aren't scalable. e.g. if a city puts a new turn lane in somewhere, you lose correlation between the vehicle's map and its sensor systems. So the disagreement has to be adjudicated. Multiply by every change to every physical road everywhere, every second of the day.

[NomisR]

I would love it if the rest of the public had safe self driving cars and didn't crash into me. But let me drive my own car still

Theoretically, current driving technology can already do that.  It can keep the cars in it's lanes so it doesn't crash into you, and it can slow down or stop if the car in front of you stop.  It's just putting it in a easily usable package so the drivers know how to use it properly.. in a way, Tesla did that to their credit. 

[Morris Minor]

Theoretically, current driving technology can already do that.  It can keep the cars in it's lanes so it doesn't crash into you, and it can slow down or stop if the car in front of you stop.  It's just putting it in a easily usable package so the drivers know how to use it properly.. in a way, Tesla did that to their credit. 

My CR-V used to go into emergency braking mode if the car the radar cruise was tracking moved into a turn lane and slowed down for the turn. It could not see what was actually happening. The Mazda does not do this.

[NomisR]

My CR-V used to go into emergency braking mode if the car the radar cruise was tracking moved into a turn lane and slowed down for the turn. It could not see what was actually happening. The Mazda does not do this.

Never used it on a road with a turn lane but I can imagine that happening.  I've always thought of these nanny devices as really annoying and intrusive as the lane keep assist would always try to keep me keep me from taking a good line in the corners and often time tell me i need to keep my hand on the steering wheel even though i am, just loosely gripping it.  The super long trip allowed me to fully appreciate it although I still won't use it on a daily basis.  I still don't trust it enough.

[CaminoRacer]

When I rented a Sentra in SF it had 1 auto braking misfire in downtown, with a bicyclist that wasn't really even in the lane.

I like radar cruise control but don't care for automatic driving packages beyond that, for when I'm driving. Warnings are the most I'd want

[Soup DeVille]

My CR-V used to go into emergency braking mode if the car the radar cruise was tracking moved into a turn lane and slowed down for the turn. It could not see what was actually happening. The Mazda does not do this.

Wife's Durango did that twice on a trip recently.

Also makes me wonder about something.

I live on a road with a blind corner. In order to see around the corner, I have to out the front end of the car right up to the edge of the other road- not quite in it, but right at the edge.

A couple of times I've had crossing traffic slam on the brakes and stop on that crossing road as they approached. I wasn't moving at all- I was watching them come. I'm now wondering if I was triggering their emergency braking.

[Morris Minor]

Never used it on a road with a turn lane but I can imagine that happening.  I've always thought of these nanny devices as really annoying and intrusive as the lane keep assist would always try to keep me keep me from taking a good line in the corners and often time tell me i need to keep my hand on the steering wheel even though i am, just loosely gripping it.  The super long trip allowed me to fully appreciate it although I still won't use it on a daily basis.  I still don't trust it enough.

Dynamic cruise works well for long trips. And also, I've found, for stop & go traffic. I drove back from the airport the other day in the Atlanta rush hour & set the cruise at about 35 mph with the shortest distance buffer setting. It tracked the car in front - stop & go - for a couple of miles of no intervention. It was very low stress.

[NomisR]

Wife's Durango did that twice on a trip recently.

Also makes me wonder about something.

I live on a road with a blind corner. In order to see around the corner, I have to out the front end of the car right up to the edge of the other road- not quite in it, but right at the edge.

A couple of times I've had crossing traffic slam on the brakes and stop on that crossing road as they approached. I wasn't moving at all- I was watching them come. I'm now wondering if I was triggering their emergency braking.

I've had the parking sensors randomly come up even while I was sitting at a red light, and nothing come in front of me or the car.. almost as if there was a ghost.. reminds me of this.

https://youtu.be/jdJcXzjyJLM

[Morris Minor]

You get an extra $2,500 EV tax credit if your vehicle in union-made. So say GM could slap a crap 30KwH battery pack in an Equinox, make it a PHEV, and you could get the full $12,500 EV tax credit. Just enjoy the full climate goodness without ever plugging it in.
Murrica, Jerbs.

[AutobahnSHO]

I just realized today I haven't seen a single electric or hybrid vehicle here in Kuwait.

At $1.32/gallon for gas and battery scorching temperatures, I wonder why LOL

[FoMoJo]

Is this real?  GAC Aion V Can Charge 0-80% In 8 Minutes At Almost 500 kW

The vehicle in question is an upcoming electric crossover for the Chinese market, the GAC Aion V, which is expected to debut this September. According to cnevpost.com (who were present at the event where the charging test was performed), during a demonstration held in late July, one GAC Aion V that was hooked up to a charger showcased the model's super-fast charging - even at 80 percent state of charge, the vehicle was still drawing 481 kW from the charger, and it put 35.1 kWh into the battery in just 4 minutes.

[Morris Minor]

Brownlee does a great job in this. Given the strength of its software & charging infrastructure, it's time for Tesla to move on from the hollow bragging of overoptimistic range claims.

https://youtu.be/vXzuFprlyrw

[Morris Minor]

Tesla Autopilot to be compared with 12 other carmakers' systems in NHTSA probe

   
• As part of a federal probe into Tesla Autopilot safety issues, NHTSA will conduct a comparative analysis of Tesla's and competitors' driver assistance systems.
• The agency has requested extensive data from 12 other automakers, including BMW, Ford, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Stellantis, Subaru, Toyota and Volkswagen.
• Results of this investigation could lead to a software recall or more for Tesla, and a broader crack-down on automakers that are selling increasingly sophisticated systems, or who aim to offer driverless cars eventually

More...
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/14/tesla-autopilot-to-be-compared-with-12-other-systems-in-nhtsa-probe.html

[SJ_GTI]

Tesla Autopilot to be compared with 12 other carmakers' systems in NHTSA probe

   
• As part of a federal probe into Tesla Autopilot safety issues, NHTSA will conduct a comparative analysis of Tesla's and competitors' driver assistance systems.
• The agency has requested extensive data from 12 other automakers, including BMW, Ford, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Stellantis, Subaru, Toyota and Volkswagen.
• Results of this investigation could lead to a software recall or more for Tesla, and a broader crack-down on automakers that are selling increasingly sophisticated systems, or who aim to offer driverless cars eventually

More...
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/14/tesla-autopilot-to-be-compared-with-12-other-systems-in-nhtsa-probe.html

Interesting. Hopefully they do real testing as well as data analysis.

[Morris Minor]

Interesting. Hopefully they do real testing as well as data analysis.

My hunch is this is the very beginning of a regulatory framework for driver assist systems. They're going to need computer scientists on the team - haha.

[AutobahnSHO]

My hunch is this is the very beginning of a regulatory framework for driver assist systems. They're going to need computer scientists on the team - haha.

Yup, no benchmark or measuring stick so to speak.

[CaminoRacer]

A Smoking Tire podcast from earlier this year mentioned that a lot of the paperwork for autonomous driving is meant for test companies like Waymo, but Tesla files that same paperwork even though their situation is pretty different? Not sure of the specifics, but they seemed to be skating under the radar even though they've released more features to a wide audience, without any oversight. Looks like the regulators are coming now.

[CaminoRacer]

Personally I don't care for the EV-autonomous vehicle connection. AVs can be ICE or EV. And I just want cool EVs that aren't AVs.

[MrH]

A Smoking Tire podcast from earlier this year mentioned that a lot of the paperwork for autonomous driving is meant for test companies like Waymo, but Tesla files that same paperwork even though their situation is pretty different? Not sure of the specifics, but they seemed to be skating under the radar even though they've released more features to a wide audience, without any oversight. Looks like the regulators are coming now.

You have to register all autonomous driving mileage logs with number of disengagements and other stuff.  Tesla advertises that the public is doing beta testing and that the data is all getting uploaded to the "dojo" and being used to train the system.  In reality, very, very little of that data is actually getting uploaded.

When it comes to registering the test mileage with the state, Tesla just tells California it's actually level 2 systems and doesn't have the capability to be anything more (which is all true).  There's just a massive disconnect from what they are pitching to the consumer, and what is being told to regulatory bodies & the actual capability.

[afty]

Personally I don't care for the EV-autonomous vehicle connection. AVs can be ICE or EV. And I just want cool EVs that aren't AVs.

I read somewhere that the electrical systems in ICEs can't handle the load from all the computers and sensors needed for self driving, and that's why all these companies are testing with EVs and hybrids.

[Morris Minor]

... the data is all getting uploaded to the "dojo" and being used to train the system.  In reality, very, very little of that data is actually getting uploaded.

The latter is true but the former is untrue.

[MrH]

I'm not clear which part you're saying is true and which is false.  I said Tesla is claiming that all the data is being uploaded and used to train the system, but the reality is that very little is happening.

You're saying the claim is untrue, and the reality that I stated is true?

[CaminoRacer]

I read somewhere that the electrical systems in ICEs can't handle the load from all the computers and sensors needed for self driving, and that's why all these companies are testing with EVs and hybrids.

That seems weird to me. A normal 12v car battery is able to power a desktop computer for hours without being charged. An ICE could be specced with a larger alternator if needed, or even a second 12v battery. Hell, it could even have a 2nd alternator if they really wanted.

[Laconian]

I'm very much looking forward to the results of the probe.

[Laconian]

That seems weird to me. A normal 12v car battery is able to power a desktop computer for hours without being charged. An ICE could be specced with a larger alternator if needed, or even a second 12v battery. Hell, it could even have a 2nd alternator if they really wanted.

No way. A desktop with a GPU can pull the better part of a kilowatt. Self driving is going to be running several GPUs at once. Lead acid can't deal with that kind of load for long without dying.

[CaminoRacer]

No way. A desktop with a GPU can pull the better part of a kilowatt. Self driving is going to be running several GPUs at once. Lead acid can't deal with that kind of load for long without dying.

The energy stored onboard an ICE is way higher than an EV, though. You've got hundreds of KW worth of gasoline vs 60-100 kw in an EV battery.

[Laconian]

The energy stored onboard an ICE is way higher than an EV, though. You've got hundreds of KW worth of gasoline vs 60-100 kw in an EV battery.

Right, but what do you do when you stop at a red light? Your alternator is not making enough juice when the engine is idling.

My boat has *three* big deep cycle lead acid batteries hooked up in parallel. I can't run the microwave (800W) or the electric kettle (1200W) off the inverter unless the motor is like at least at 30% load. It would work for a while, but it would wreak havoc with the longevity of the batteries. The ability to handle the high loads completely falls off a cliff after even a moderate amount of charge depletion.