EVs

[r0tor]

I'm not clear which part you're saying is true and which is false.  I said Tesla is claiming that all the data is being uploaded and used to train the system, but the reality is that very little is happening.

You're saying the claim is untrue, and the reality that I stated is true?

So you know what the data being sent is..... How?

[MrH]

So you know what the data being sent is..... How?

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1096322810694287361.html

The guy buys old Tesla ECUs from wreck yards and pulls videos off them all the time of the crash.  He owns multiple Teslas and is pretty much the authority outside of Tesla themselves on how Autopilot and FSD work.

Do you really think Tesla is live streaming all cars on the road back to their server?  Even with their shitty cameras, that would be huge cellular bandwidth to do that all the time.  Do you think they record every mile of driving, and upload all of that on the owner's wifi when they park?  There have been tons of surveys about this on Tesla forums.  It's no where near that scale.

[veeman]

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/new-york-gas-cars-trucks-ban-2035-governor-hochul/

New York makes law requiring all new cars to be EV in 2035.

So essentially IMHO an unenforceable law which will be sidetracked in 2034 because there is no infrastructure whatsoever to support that particularly in the 8 million plus population of NYC.  I don't think the 500,000 EV charging stations Biden wants to have installed from the trillion plus dollar stimulus is going to happen. 

[r0tor]

I think some people are in for a rude awakening on how many gas stations are still in business come 2030-2035

[Soup DeVille]

I read somewhere that the electrical systems in ICEs can't handle the load from all the computers and sensors needed for self driving, and that's why all these companies are testing with EVs and hybrids.

Which is stupid for anybody that thinks about it for half a second. What reason is there that the same computer can't be put in either?

[Soup DeVille]

That seems weird to me. A normal 12v car battery is able to power a desktop computer for hours without being charged. An ICE could be specced with a larger alternator if needed, or even a second 12v battery. Hell, it could even have a 2nd alternator if they really wanted.

Most luxury cars now have 36V systems to handle the stop/start and to keep the air running with the engine off.

The power draw from a computer is not a tough nut to crack.

[Soup DeVille]

Right, but what do you do when you stop at a red light? Your alternator is not making enough juice when the engine is idling.

My boat has *three* big deep cycle lead acid batteries hooked up in parallel. I can't run the microwave (800W) or the electric kettle (1200W) off the inverter unless the motor is like at least at 30% load. It would work for a while, but it would wreak havoc with the longevity of the batteries. The ability to handle the high loads completely falls off a cliff after even a moderate amount of charge depletion.

If you change the power requirements of a system, of course you have to change the power supply capability too. There are literally hundreds of ways to do this that don't require switching to all electric battery power.

[Laconian]

If you change the power requirements of a system, of course you have to change the power supply capability too. There are literally hundreds of ways to do this that don't require switching to all electric battery power.

You'd probably want a big lithium ion battery. At that point you might as well make the car into a hybrid.

[Soup DeVille]

You'd probably want a big lithium ion battery. At that point you might as well make the car into a hybrid.

A battery to maintain 1-2kW output for short stints is not the same sort of scale you need for even a mild hybrid.
My point is, the power problem isn't a problem at all.
EVs should continue to develop; but for other, more obvious reasons.

[MrH]

EVs are much easier to control from an input perspective too.  It makes total sense to only do AV development with EVs.  It doesn't matter at this point, we're not getting to level 5 any time soon.  They can develop it with a mattress on a skateboard for all I care

[Morris Minor]

I'm not clear which part you're saying is true and which is false.  I said Tesla is claiming that all the data is being uploaded and used to train the system, but the reality is that very little is happening.

You're saying the claim is untrue, and the reality that I stated is true?

They don't claim to upload everything to their NN backend. That would be a vast amount of unneeded & unwanted noise. Trigger requests for particular circumstances go out to the fleet and vehicles that encounter it are trigger to upload. Also the Dojo system has not been built. Their NN ML/training system is still based on Nvidia GPUs.

[Morris Minor]

I'm very much looking forward to the results of the probe.

All the manufacturers got the same request that Tesla did, & the same penalty if they fail to comply. Send us everything. I guess most will be unable to do so - I know Honda didn't get info when my CR-V's lane keep assist/radar cruise did its random emergency braking party trick.


And that lack of data in itself will be something NHTSA will pick up on.

[MrH]

They don't claim to upload everything to their NN backend. That would be a vast amount of unneeded & unwanted noise. Trigger requests for particular circumstances go out to the fleet and vehicles that encounter it are trigger to upload. Also the Dojo system has not been built. Their NN ML/training system is still based on Nvidia GPUs.

Ok, we're on the same page here.  The only thing I disagree with is that they don't claim everything gets uploaded.  They don't directly say every second of driving is being used to train the NN, but that's exactly what most Tesla fans think.  The claim they have 3 billion miles of data that they always spout is intentionally misleading IMO.

[FoMoJo]

GM tells Bolt owners to park 50 feet from other cars in parking garages, confirms 12 fires


As it seeks a solution to a battery fire risk, General Motors issued yet another safety recommendation Wednesday for Chevrolet Bolt owners: If you're pulling into a parking deck, keep your car at least 50 feet away from other vehicles.

A customer's concern about the safety of leaving their electric vehicle in a parking garage led the automaker to provide the additional guidance to owners of the Bolts, all of which GM has recalled, spokesman Dan Flores said.

[r0tor]

Ok, we're on the same page here.  The only thing I disagree with is that they don't claim everything gets uploaded.  They don't directly say every second of driving is being used to train the NN, but that's exactly what most Tesla fans think.  The claim they have 3 billion miles of data that they always spout is intentionally misleading IMO.

The latest autopilot software notifies you when it beams an event to the mothership.  Most people can understand that 3 billion refers to events that have occurred in 3 billion driven miles... That's sort of how machine learning works

[GoCougs]

EVs are much easier to control from an input perspective too.  It makes total sense to only do AV development with EVs.  It doesn't matter at this point, we're not getting to level 5 any time soon.  They can develop it with a mattress on a skateboard for all I care

Yep, agree - electric motors, esp. at each axle or wheel, will enable a far more responsive system (driving), esp. for performance and safety, vs. a lone ICE and multi-speed transmission (which feels positively archaic in its response).

But I think it's much softer than that. AD and EVs separately are a much weaker sell - i.e., VC and investors would be much less so enamored. Combine them though, and whoa stand back - it's all rainbows and unicorns then.

Thing is, it's taken ~10 years for each (Tesla for EVs, Waymo for AD) to get to their present points, and there's still literally untold time and $$$ for realization. I don't think it'll ever happen w/out nation-wide infrastructure and mandates that are simply not affordable.

I also remain a skeptic WRT to WtP - I don't think most of the driving public is interested in either EVs or AD.

[AutobahnSHO]

I think most Americans would LOVE to be like Wall-E chubs riding around without having to steer or pay attention.

[Morris Minor]

FSD is the item on Monte Carlo simulations of Tesla's prospects that moves the needle the most... by far. Crazy high risk. Without that they can't do robotaxis, & they're just the EV newcomer that got the 10-year start on legacy makers.

[r0tor]

I think most Americans would LOVE to be like Wall-E chubs riding around without having to steer or pay attention.

Most Americans would rather do anything other than drive when driving

[afty]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/09/lucid-gets-its-official-epa-range-ratings-and-theyre-astounding/

The Lucid Air Dream Edition is rated for a ridiculous 520 miles of EPA range. For comparison, the longest range Tesla currently on sale is the Model S Long Range at 405 miles. Even more impressive is the Lucid Air's efficiency — it's more efficient than a Model 3 Long Range yet has 2.7x the power.

[Laconian]

113kWh!!!!!

[GoCougs]

Because 900V vs. Tesla's 400V.

More volts and less current for a given power is inherently more efficient (more current = more heat (= power) = less shaft power), plus there will be some other efficiency byproducts using a higher voltage/lower current system such as smaller/lighter motors (less current = less windings/smaller wire) and less cooling needed (Tesla's 400V will theoretically generate (900/400)^2 = ~5x the heat of a 900V system).

[Soup DeVille]

All true,
but man; 900 VDC is nothing to fuck around with.

[r0tor]

Yea, 900V is going to have some serious safety concerns

[MrH]

Can it be much worse than this?

https://twitter.com/GladiatorOffice/status/1438673406233235460?s=20

[Morris Minor]

$9K tax credit for cars with 7 kWh batteries, which cost <$1K? Mega wasted resources going into shitty plug-in hybrids that need never be plugged in. Dead weight for the ICE to lug around. Way to go House Ways & Means Committee. Big Three + UAW cash trump progressive climate hand-wringing.

[GoCougs]

All true,
but man; 900 VDC is nothing to fuck around with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6si8Xp8P-M

If it were say 48V vs. 900V, sure, but 400V is already in the category of super dangerous, and with vastly less heat generated, I would not be surprised if the 900V vehicles have fewer fires and related thermal problems (and hence are safer overall). Plus, 900V vehicles will charge quicker and will run harder for longer.

[ChrisV]

GM tells Bolt owners to park 50 feet from other cars in parking garages, confirms 12 fires


As it seeks a solution to a battery fire risk, General Motors issued yet another safety recommendation Wednesday for Chevrolet Bolt owners: If you're pulling into a parking deck, keep your car at least 50 feet away from other vehicles.

A customer's concern about the safety of leaving their electric vehicle in a parking garage led the automaker to provide the additional guidance to owners of the Bolts, all of which GM has recalled, spokesman Dan Flores said.

The concern is actually with the parking garage owners, banning Bolts from parking in them (even though thousands of gas cars have burned down in parking garages, including late model cars and not just dilapidated old cars, which they never check for anyways).

Be that as it may, it's made owning a Bolt almost impossible. Less than a hundredth of a percent have burned down, but GM screwed the pooch with the recall, and LG is having a hard time figuring out how to manufacture replacement batteries, so instead of not being able to park the Bolt in front of the house, near other cars, at work, in parking garages, or even parking lots, I'm working with a Chevy Concierge on turning it back in and terminating the lease. Love the car, hate the attitudes surrounding it. And there's nothing of the Bolt's capabilities in it's actual price range on the market other than the Leaf and it still uses ChaDeMO which isn't compatible with most charging stations or our home EVSE charging station. My wife says she won't go back to a gas car for daily driving and doesn't want to settle for something she doesn't want.

[Laconian]

[CaminoRacer]

The concern is actually with the parking garage owners, banning Bolts from parking in them (even though thousands of gas cars have burned down in parking garages, including late model cars and not just dilapidated old cars, which they never check for anyways).

Be that as it may, it's made owning a Bolt almost impossible. Less than a hundredth of a percent have burned down, but GM screwed the pooch with the recall, and LG is having a hard time figuring out how to manufacture replacement batteries, so instead of not being able to park the Bolt in front of the house, near other cars, at work, in parking garages, or even parking lots, I'm working with a Chevy Concierge on turning it back in and terminating the lease. Love the car, hate the attitudes surrounding it. And there's nothing of the Bolt's capabilities in it's actual price range on the market other than the Leaf and it still uses ChaDeMO which isn't compatible with most charging stations or our home EVSE charging station. My wife says she won't go back to a gas car for daily driving and doesn't want to settle for something she doesn't want.

I kinda want to swap ours for a Model 3, but I'm wary of Tesla and it's also twice as much $ as we paid for our Bolt.