EVs

[Galaxy]

So apparently Porsche has confirmed that the next Macan (2021) will be electric only? That would be huge, the Macan is 1/3 of their sales. Not sure I 100% believe it though.

[12,000 RPM]

I've been seeing that too. I don't believe it. Porsche is smarter than that. Too much too soon.

[veeman]

Last year in the US the Tesla Model X outsold the Porsche Macan and outsold the Porsche Cayenne.  This despite the Model X having some serious design flaws, not really being a great looker, and in general more expensive. 

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019/01/december-2018-ytd-u-s-suv-and-crossover-sales-rankings-every-suv-ranked/

[Morris Minor]

Methinks this is largely because Germany abandoned nuclear power generation post-Fukushima. A mistake IMO.
They went back to coal - I remember the air did not smell too great when we were in Saxony last autumn.

Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists.
More...
http://brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows

[thewizard16]

Methinks this is largely because Germany abandoned nuclear power generation post-Fukushima. A mistake IMO.
They went back to coal - I remember the air did not smell too great when we were in Saxony last autumn.

Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists.
More...
http://brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows

Jalopnik was all over that yesterday:
https://jalopnik.com/enough-with-the-actually-electric-cars-pollute-more-bu-1834338565

[r0tor]

Methinks this is largely because Germany abandoned nuclear power generation post-Fukushima. A mistake IMO.
They went back to coal - I remember the air did not smell too great when we were in Saxony last autumn.

Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists.
More...
http://brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows

That story is full of more shit then a cow pasteur

Also Germany did not go "back to coal".  They moved to renewables.

[FoMoJo]

Methinks this is largely because Germany abandoned nuclear power generation post-Fukushima. A mistake IMO.
They went back to coal - I remember the air did not smell too great when we were in Saxony last autumn.

Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists.
More...
http://brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows

Do Germans still have scientists.  I thought they all either went to Russia or the US.

[Galaxy]

Also Germany did not go "back to coal".  They moved to renewables.

In 2017 renewables accounted for 33% of German electrical production, that is impressive , however coal accounted for 37%. Nuclear power was replaced more by coal then renewables. I do not think nuclear power is a long term solution, however I think shutting down coal plants should have been a priority. That German is still strip mining for lignin in 2018 is unbelievable, makes us look like Trump with his "green coal" plan. I do think that 100% renewables is doable for 2050.

[Galaxy]

Instead of giving subsidies for coal here is what the Trump administration should be supporting.

https://www.ge.com/renewableenergy/stories/new-wind-turbine-to-increase-efficiency-in-offshore-wind-farms

GE Haliade-X 12MW wind turbines. They are made for offshore use, but I wonder how they would work in the prairies? I've been to the north american prairies and it is annoying how there is constantly wind even at ground level.

[BimmerM3]

Instead of giving subsidies for coal here is what the Trump administration should be supporting.

https://www.ge.com/renewableenergy/stories/new-wind-turbine-to-increase-efficiency-in-offshore-wind-farms

GE Haliade-X 12MW wind turbines. They are made for offshore use, but I wonder how they would work in the prairies? I've been to the north american prairies and it is annoying how there is constantly wind even at ground level.

The great plains do have a lot of windmills already, though I'm sure there's plenty of room for more.

[FoMoJo]

In 2017 renewables accounted for 33% of German electrical production, that is impressive , however coal accounted for 37%. Nuclear power was replaced more by coal then renewables. I do not think nuclear power is a long term solution, however I think shutting down coal plants should have been a priority. That German is still strip mining for lignin in 2018 is unbelievable, makes us look like Trump with his "green coal" plan. I do think that 100% renewables is doable for 2050.

Better energy storage/batteries will go a long way in making renewable energy more feasible.

[93JC]

I don't know about the States but we have lots of turbines in Alberta. They still only account for about 9% of the generating capacity, and at any given moment they don't generate more than 1-2%.

[FoMoJo]

In Ontario, they claim that 33.4% of energy is from renewable sources and 91.7% of its electricity from sources that are non-emitting during operation.

Presumably, that would mean nuclear; and we do have Niagara falls.  We still call electric energy 'hydro' here.

[r0tor]

In 2017 renewables accounted for 33% of German electrical production, that is impressive , however coal accounted for 37%. Nuclear power was replaced more by coal then renewables. I do not think nuclear power is a long term solution, however I think shutting down coal plants should have been a priority. That German is still strip mining for lignin in 2018 is unbelievable, makes us look like Trump with his "green coal" plan. I do think that 100% renewables is doable for 2050.

Coal and nuclear power both have dropped off in the last 10 years in Germany during the rise of renewables

[SJ_GTI]

Its hard to find exact figures, this article from January seems to suggest that coal is just 13.9% of energy in Germany.

If I am understanding correctly, wind power alone (111 TWh) produced more energy than coal (75.7 TWh). They didn't list the specific amount of nuclear, but did mention it is 13.3% of the total.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-power-renewables/renewables-overtake-coal-as-germanys-main-energy-source-idUSKCN1OX0U2

[93JC]

You misread the quote. It said "The research from the Fraunhofer organization of applied science showed that output of solar, wind, biomass and hydroelectric generation units rose 4.3 percent last year to produce 219 terawatt hours (TWh) of electricity. That was out of a total national power production of 542 TWh derived from both green and fossil fuels, of which coal burning accounted for 38 percent," and "Wind power was the biggest source of energy after domestically mined brown coal power which accounted for 24.1 percent. Coal plants run on imported hard coal contributed 75.7 TWh, or 13.9 percent of the total."

24.1% (~130.3 TWh) from domestically-produced coal, 13.9% (75.7 TWh) from imported coal, 38% total from coal (~206 TWh).

[SJ_GTI]

Gotcha, I didn't notice that coal was listed as two different types.

[SJ_GTI]

So compared to the US, they use a higher proportion of coal, but also a much higher proportion of renewable energy (but less nuclear energy).

Then again, if you adjust to per capita, the US uses more coal power per capita. We (US) just use way more energy in total per capita (almost twice as much).

US figures taken from here:

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

[GoCougs]

Instead of giving subsidies for coal here is what the Trump administration should be supporting.

https://www.ge.com/renewableenergy/stories/new-wind-turbine-to-increase-efficiency-in-offshore-wind-farms

GE Haliade-X 12MW wind turbines. They are made for offshore use, but I wonder how they would work in the prairies? I've been to the north american prairies and it is annoying how there is constantly wind even at ground level.

But they cost bunches and don't appear to be better for the environment (limited actual production, lots of pollution to build from the metals/plastics/electronics/etc., and have limited life; i.e., have to be replaced). There are lots of wind farms all over the US, and they are also proving to be a bit of a bust for these reasons.

The only renewable worth pursing is looking to be hydro, but it's boring (and to be fair, dams to unpend local and regional ecosystems).

[12,000 RPM]

I'm guessing costs have dropped precipitously as I'm seeing NPV break-even points of ~7-8 years based on current per kW costs and per kWh savings

I'm sure it's the same with solar

And let's not act like conventional generation doesn't have it's own maintenance costs. Even if they have to replace turbines every 10 years they're still making free electricity. Adding a battery doesn't even seem to impact the cost too much

[veeman]

Windmills suck.  I'm not talking the beautiful old fashioned kind in the Netherlands.  The earth has so few places left to enjoy its natural beauty as cities and suburbia take greater and greater land every year.  The last thing I want to see are windmills destroying this.  Fuck wind power.

https://img-aws.ehowcdn.com/600x600p/s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/contentlab.studiod/getty/b12e751689d64df395cb1013fd0a2505.jpg

Talk about a dystopian future.  Get away from your ant like existence in a crowded city in your skyscraper apartment which only allows 1 ft x 1 ft double paned windows in order to be most energy efficient, get on a crowded bus because cars are banned, get driven four hours through a wind mill filled prairie, to go to an artificial Orlando style amusement park.  Enjoy your vacation.  Next year, you won the raffle and get to go to the 10 sq mile x 10 sq mile National Park. 

[GoCougs]

Windmills suck.  I'm not talking the beautiful old fashioned kind in the Netherlands.  The earth has so few places left to enjoy its natural beauty as cities and suburbia take greater and greater land every year.  The last thing I want to see are windmills destroying this.  Fuck wind power.

https://img-aws.ehowcdn.com/600x600p/s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/contentlab.studiod/getty/b12e751689d64df395cb1013fd0a2505.jpg

Talk about a dystopian future.  Get away from your ant like existence in a crowded city in your skyscraper apartment which only allows 1 ft x 1 ft double paned windows in order to be most energy efficient, get on a crowded bus because cars are banned, get driven four hours through a wind mill filled prairie, to go to an artificial Orlando style amusement park.  Enjoy your vacation.  Next year, you won the raffle and get to go to the 10 sq mile x 10 sq mile National Park. 

Oh, that future is just around the corner, to be sure, but that will come from a certain socio-political source, not windmills .

Windmills, if they lived up to their promises, would be worth it. They're built where nothing else is; there are some sorta near me and I think they're neat.

Also, the other things not usually mentioned is wind farms generate noise (the low frequency kind that can carry for miles) and change local climate.

[12,000 RPM]

Yea a nice view is worth way more than staving off climate change veeman I am disappoint

Here's a thorough debunking of that silly German study

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/here-we-go-again-german-research-institute-claims-diesels-are-cleaner-than-evs/

Some of the issues with the IFO article identified by Focus, WirtschaftsWoche, electrive and Hoekstra:

-The IFO piece incorrectly assumes that EV batteries become "hazardous waste" after 150,000 km. However, this is shorter than the typical warranty period for an EV battery (a federally-mandated 100,000 miles [160,000 km] in the US, and 150,000 miles in California). Furthermore, many automakers and others are working on recycling EV batteries, which are still quite valuable after reaching the end of their service lives. Today, the EU prescribes a recycling quota of 50 percent of lithium-ion batteries. Furthermore, Li-ion batteries are not officially considered hazardous waste in the US, but the lead-acid batteries used in all diesel vehicles are.

-The report compares a Tesla Model 3 with a 75 kWh battery pack to a Mercedes C220 diesel, an apples-to-oranges comparison. The Tesla vehicle's power output is up to 473 hp, whereas that of the Mercedes is 194 hp. It's also worth mentioning that the powerful Tesla is far from the most efficient EV available, whereas the C220 is one of the most efficient diesel vehicles on the German market.
The IFO authors inexplicably calculate CO2 emissions for Model 3 that are 16 percent higher than the official figures published by Germany's Federal Environmental Agency.

-The article uses figures from the old NEDC test regimen, which is famously inaccurate, and is in the process of being replaced by the newer WLTP standard. WirtschaftsWoche calls the figures used in the IFO article "fairy-tale values that have nothing in common with reality," and asks why Dr. Sinn chose to work with "the outdated, demonstrably inferior laboratory standard, where even more appropriate standards such as WLTP or EPA and even empirical consumption values ​​are easily accessible for both vehicles."

-In its calculations of full-lifecycle emissions, the article includes the emissions from electricity generation for EVs, but does not include the emissions generated in producing and transporting the fuel for diesel vehicles.

-The IFO writers assume that every German EV is powered by the average mix of electricity sources supplying the German grid. In fact, an increasing number of EV drivers use electricity from their own photovoltaic systems. Many German utility customers also have the option of purchasing 100 percent renewably-generated electricity.

As WirtschaftsWoche's Stefan Hajek put it, the IFO article always assumes worst-case scenarios for EVs and best-case scenarios for diesel vehicles.

My inner conspiracy theorist believes the German auto industry commissioned this goofy ass study for EV relief. They put on a public face of moving forward but know the economics of it are rough and want relief.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Windmills suck.  I'm not talking the beautiful old fashioned kind in the Netherlands.  The earth has so few places left to enjoy its natural beauty as cities and suburbia take greater and greater land every year.  The last thing I want to see are windmills destroying this.  Fuck wind power.

https://img-aws.ehowcdn.com/600x600p/s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/contentlab.studiod/getty/b12e751689d64df395cb1013fd0a2505.jpg

Talk about a dystopian future.  Get away from your ant like existence in a crowded city in your skyscraper apartment which only allows 1 ft x 1 ft double paned windows in order to be most energy efficient, get on a crowded bus because cars are banned, get driven four hours through a wind mill filled prairie, to go to an artificial Orlando style amusement park.  Enjoy your vacation.  Next year, you won the raffle and get to go to the 10 sq mile x 10 sq mile National Park.

Oh no, your poor eyes

[veeman]

Oh no, your poor eyes

You want LAND.  Because LAND. I will gladly start a petition for placement of windmills around your LAND 

[BimmerM3]

Oh no, your poor eyes

[Eye of the Tiger]

You want LAND.  Because LAND. I will gladly start a petition for placement of windmills around your LAND 

I would build my own wind turbines if I had the money.

[FoMoJo]

E = mc2 .

So much energy potential yet burning fossil fuels is so easy. 

[veeman]

Yea a nice view is worth way more than staving off climate change veeman I am disappoint

I've been to Palm Springs twice.  What would have been a beautiful scenic drive from LA was destroyed by these massive windmill farms.  I got out of the car and pulled over the side of the road.  I couldn't help but mutter in front of my kids, wtf. 

Thank god there were none of those monstrosities on my way from Las Vegas to Zion/Bryce National Parks and from Southwest Utah on the way to the Grand Canyon.  Just epic natural beauty on all sides stretching out for miles and miles.  Or in Idaho/Montana/Wyoming surrounding Yellowstone National Park.

[veeman]

I would build my own wind turbines if I had the money.

No you wouldn't. Because you envision your house/shed/carport whatever surrounded by beautiful LAND and it's natural terrain.  Not with a big fugly industrial windmill or windmills on it.  I know.  You know. We all know.