Next Lexus IS Might Get Supra’s BMW-Sourced Straight Six

Started by cawimmer430, February 21, 2019, 07:52:52 AM

MexicoCityM3

BMW & Toyota are already cooperating to share costs in segments where volume is dwindling as in the Z4/Supra common car (and it seems they did a pretty good job). The sports sedan segment is also in decline. Why wouldn't Toyota consider using what is widely acknowledged as the best engine in the segment?

I know, because here reliability over 10 years is the one and only concern when buying any car. The CarSpin alternate reality and group-think (with some exceptions) is staggering.
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12,000 RPM

Best by what metrics? And should reliability not be a factor considered in a car purchase?
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 06, 2019, 10:02:27 AM
Best by what metrics? And should reliability not be a factor considered in a car purchase?

Back up your reliability concerns with THAT SPECIFIC engine
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MexicoCityM3

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 06, 2019, 10:02:27 AM
Best by what metrics? And should reliability not be a factor considered in a car purchase?

Smoothest, most refined, very powerful for its size, good sounding. BMW has never stopped making the best powertrains in the business.
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GoCougs

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on March 06, 2019, 09:48:40 AM
BMW & Toyota are already cooperating to share costs in segments where volume is dwindling as in the Z4/Supra common car (and it seems they did a pretty good job). The sports sedan segment is also in decline. Why wouldn't Toyota consider using what is widely acknowledged as the best engine in the segment?

I know, because here reliability over 10 years is the one and only concern when buying any car. The CarSpin alternate reality and group-think (with some exceptions) is staggering.

So it cost then or performance that is the driver?

And what exactly about BMW engines would Toyota be drawn too? After all, Toyota's built more I6s that BMW could ever hope to, and has/had hi-po V8s and V10s that were reliable and durable (unlike BMW).

If a motor can't last 10 years that absolutely must be a prime purchasing consideration. BMW has a chronic legacy of poor engine design, but most automakers do not.

The Supra will flop hugely. It was a bad call by Toyota. Spend the effort on something that matters. I suspect there was some behind-the-scenes horse trading.


FoMoJo

C'mom, BMW is a far more iconic brand that Toyota will ever be in respect to sports cars/sedans.  Toyota with a BMW engine will be a selling point to a far larger market than just the import fanboyz.

"You bought a Toyota?" :facepalm: 

"Well, it has a BMW engine." :praise:

"Ahhh, I see." :ohyeah:
"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth" ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

GoCougs

The new Supra will have essentially zero sales volume as a Toyota with a BMW engine will be a selling point to precisely no one - it's bound to have the boring-ness of Toyota and the engine reliability problems of BMW. All in all, BMW fanboys will buy the Z4, Toyota/Supra fanboys wouldn't ever touch such a thing, and know nothin' $50k+ sports car buyers won't be window shopping Toyota dealers.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on March 06, 2019, 11:35:39 AM
Smoothest, most refined, very powerful for its size, good sounding. BMW has never stopped making the best powertrains in the business.
I'll give you smoothest... most refined is debatable, sound is a strawman as what you hear in the car is fake. And you didn't answer the reliability question.....

I'm not saying a BMW will leave you stranded on the road... but they are def a downgrade in reliability compared to Toyota/Lexus.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

cawimmer430

Quote from: GoCougs on March 06, 2019, 01:09:19 PM
The new Supra will have essentially zero sales volume as a Toyota with a BMW engine will be a selling point to precisely no one - it's bound to have the boring-ness of Toyota and the engine reliability problems of BMW. All in all, BMW fanboys will buy the Z4, Toyota/Supra fanboys wouldn't ever touch such a thing, and know nothin' $50k+ sports car buyers won't be window shopping Toyota dealers.

You should apply for a job at Toyota and replace Akio Toyoda. That old man clearly has no clue what he's done and how he's about to ruin the Toyota brand for generations to come...  :devil:
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GoCougs

Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 06, 2019, 01:36:09 PM
You should apply for a job at Toyota and replace Akio Toyoda. That old man clearly has no clue what he's done and how he's about to ruin the Toyota brand for generations to come...  :devil:

I suspect that there is something secret happening, and the result is this waste-of-time Supra. No one as presented one iota of advantage for Toyota doing this, esp. technical.

Perhaps Toyota is testing waters on buying BMW, or buying a large stake (a la Subaru/Fuji HI and the FT-86, which proved to be a mild hit for Toyota).

cawimmer430

Quote from: GoCougs on March 06, 2019, 01:42:52 PM
I suspect that there is something secret happening, and the result is this waste-of-time Supra. No one as presented one iota of advantage for Toyota doing this, esp. technical.

Perhaps Toyota is testing waters on buying BMW, or buying a large stake (a la Subaru/Fuji HI and the FT-86, which proved to be a mild hit for Toyota).

Why would Toyota enter into an engineering collaboration with BMW if their engines are so "unreliable"? Akio Toyoda looked delighted when he signed that contract with BMW.

I don't think BMW engines are that bad. I think the whole 335i turbo issues put a bad light on BMW engines in general and now people think "all" BMW engines suck.

And it's not like Toyota engines don't have issues. I recently found out that the famed older Land Cruisers also had issues and weaknesses, namely sensitive head gaskets among others. But reliability also takes into account how cheap and easy a car is to fix and in that regard Toyota has an advantage over BMW.
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BimmerM3

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on March 06, 2019, 09:48:40 AM
BMW & Toyota are already cooperating to share costs in segments where volume is dwindling as in the Z4/Supra common car (and it seems they did a pretty good job). The sports sedan segment is also in decline. Why wouldn't Toyota consider using what is widely acknowledged as the best engine in the segment?

I know, because here reliability over 10 years is the one and only concern when buying any car. The CarSpin alternate reality and group-think (with some exceptions) is staggering.

Sorry we don't all have five other BMWs to use when one of ours is in the shop.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 06, 2019, 03:57:58 PM
Sorry we don't all have five other BMWs to use when one of ours is in the shop.
I didn't want to repeat myself :lol:

Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Laconian

If you get a Supra:
* you're going to have another car
* it's going to be driven infrequently
* you can surely afford repairs
* pay to play brah
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MexicoCityM3

Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 06, 2019, 03:57:58 PM
Sorry we don't all have five other BMWs to use when one of ours is in the shop.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 06, 2019, 04:26:34 PM
I didn't want to repeat myself :lol:

Well, I'll come across like an ass but whatever.

You guys are not in the target market for these new entry-luxury sedans. BMW/Lexus couldn't care less about your opinion. Most people don't buy new in this segment with a primary concern of 10 year total bulletproof reliability.

There.

Also, FWIW all my BMWs with inline sixes have spent close to zero time in the shop for engine issues.

E46 M3 - Now at 106K kilometers (about 70K miles). One alternator replacement, no other issues (it needs a cooling system refresh now).

1M - With the oh so unreliable exploding N54 engine. It has 43K kilometers. It's been in a couple of times for injector/coil issues. Total downtime maybe 6-8 days.

New M3. Obviously flawless. It better be so far.
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12,000 RPM

It's not even about 10 year reliability. Forget us- actual F30 owners filed a class action lawsuit against BMW for the N20 timing chain failures. None of those cars are 10 years old and yet there have been enough engine failures to warrant a class action lawsuit. Suit is still open but it's not looking good for BMW.

Since we're being asses your ownership experience is kind of irrelevant. You drive your cars like 4k miles a year. You live in a country with cheap labor so it's no issue to get stuff fixed. Etc. Not really representative of the average BMW owner if that is our yardstick of relevance.

And again Toyota literally just made a brand new twin turbo V6. None of this makes any sense
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Xer0

I feel like you guys are being a bit needlessly anti BMW here.  Lets not kid ourselves, Lexus' 350 badged cars are slower than the _30 badged BMW cars and can't even keep up long enough to see the tail lights of the _40 cars.  Its the same story against Audi and Mercedes.  I'm not sure what the deal with their new TTV6 in the LS and if they can actually spread that out across their lineup, but maybe its too cost prohibitive and something like this was the quick and easy fix to that.

BimmerM3

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on March 06, 2019, 08:20:45 PM
You guys are not in the target market for these new entry-luxury sedans.

I'm a 31 year old male making an upper-middle class income. If that's not the target market for a 3er, I don't know what is.

Quote from: Xer0 on March 06, 2019, 08:42:45 PM
I feel like you guys are being a bit needlessly anti BMW here.  Lets not kid ourselves, Lexus' 350 badged cars are slower than the _30 badged BMW cars and can't even keep up long enough to see the tail lights of the _40 cars.  Its the same story against Audi and Mercedes.  I'm not sure what the deal with their new TTV6 in the LS and if they can actually spread that out across their lineup, but maybe its too cost prohibitive and something like this was the quick and easy fix to that.

I won't speak for everyone else here, I'm just saying that Toyota/Lexus's primary selling point is their reputation for reliability and cheap maintenance, so I'm questioning the wisdom of them using an engine from a brand that has a reputation for expensive maintenance.

GoCougs

Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 06, 2019, 01:48:50 PM
Why would Toyota enter into an engineering collaboration with BMW if their engines are so "unreliable"? Akio Toyoda looked delighted when he signed that contract with BMW.

I don't think BMW engines are that bad. I think the whole 335i turbo issues put a bad light on BMW engines in general and now people think "all" BMW engines suck.

And it's not like Toyota engines don't have issues. I recently found out that the famed older Land Cruisers also had issues and weaknesses, namely sensitive head gaskets among others. But reliability also takes into account how cheap and easy a car is to fix and in that regard Toyota has an advantage over BMW.

Again, I think something else is going on behind the scenes, as I suggested. Could be the easiest explanation is the best explanation - Toyota doesn't have or doesn't want to spend much time/money on a sports car, so it's either the BMW partnership or no Supra (and to be fair, it worked out okay with the FT-86).

The Landcruiser is quite literally the most reliable, most durable, longest-lived vehicle on sale today, in any market, at any price, and it's been that way for a while. It's not perfect, but there is nothing better in these three regards.

Xer0

Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 07, 2019, 10:00:22 AM

I won't speak for everyone else here, I'm just saying that Toyota/Lexus's primary selling point is their reputation for reliability and cheap maintenance, so I'm questioning the wisdom of them using an engine from a brand that has a reputation for expensive maintenance.

Sure, but Lexus can't trade on only reliability.  As everyone catches up and the gap from most reliable to least reliable shrinks, and the prevalence of leases increases, there needs to be something else there besides just "more reliable than the Germans".  They are trending into more performance but all of their engines from a pure numbers perspective lag behind the Germans; their 2.0T gets walked by any German 2.0T, their 3.5 V6 gets destroyed by all the German 3.0Ts, and their 5.6 V8 is embarrassed by the German 4.0Ts.  Maybe they just decided that it makes more sense to buy something that works in the interim than let the Germans further pass them up in performance.

GoCougs

Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 07, 2019, 10:00:22 AM
I'm a 31 year old male making an upper-middle class income. If that's not the target market for a 3er, I don't know what is.

And apparently robotics enginerd G37 owners also need not apply ;).

That post was outta touch. BMW has a rich history of design and engineering shortcomings, and it turns a lot of people off.

Laconian

IMO it sours the used market somewhat, but the world's your oyster when it's under warranty...
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12,000 RPM

Quote from: Xer0 on March 07, 2019, 10:48:02 AM
Sure, but Lexus can't trade on only reliability.  As everyone catches up and the gap from most reliable to least reliable shrinks, and the prevalence of leases increases, there needs to be something else there besides just "more reliable than the Germans".  They are trending into more performance but all of their engines from a pure numbers perspective lag behind the Germans; their 2.0T gets walked by any German 2.0T, their 3.5 V6 gets destroyed by all the German 3.0Ts, and their 5.6 V8 is embarrassed by the German 4.0Ts.  Maybe they just decided that it makes more sense to buy something that works in the interim than let the Germans further pass them up in performance.
Are people really buying leasing German compact sedans for performance and driving engagement? All 3 German brands don't offer sticks in their "sport" sedans. I don't think anyone does anymore. So in terms of actually selling cars all this bench racing stuff is irrelevant.

Lexus can and does sell on reliability- that is how they curb stomped the Germans upon their debut and how they have carved out big profitable market share. Up until the Model 3 the ES has been the top selling midsize luxury sedan for decades. RX is the midsize luxury CUV king, NX is in the mix in the compacts. Me and MCM are the only kinds of idiots taking our luxury cars to track days... all this performance stuff is irrelevant

Reliability isn't as relevant as it used to be with leasing getting more and more prevalent, but I think leasing and what seems like planned obsolescence on the German's part create a feedback cycle. German luxury cars lose value way faster than Japanese luxury cars as a result. I'll pull up some numbers later
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12,000 RPM

Quote from: Laconian on March 07, 2019, 11:04:33 AM
IMO it sours the used market somewhat, but the world's your oyster when it's under warranty...
Money is only one piece of the cost of an unreliable car.....
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Xer0

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 07, 2019, 11:13:47 AM
Are people really buying leasing German compact sedans for performance and driving engagement? All 3 German brands don't offer sticks in their "sport" sedans. I don't think anyone does anymore. So in terms of actually selling cars all this bench racing stuff is irrelevant.

Lexus can and does sell on reliability- that is how they curb stomped the Germans upon their debut and how they have carved out big profitable market share. Up until the Model 3 the ES has been the top selling midsize luxury sedan for decades. RX is the midsize luxury CUV king, NX is in the mix in the compacts. Me and MCM are the only kinds of idiots taking our luxury cars to track days... all this performance stuff is irrelevant

Reliability isn't as relevant as it used to be with leasing getting more and more prevalent, but I think leasing and what seems like planned obsolescence on the German's part create a feedback cycle. German luxury cars lose value way faster than Japanese luxury cars as a result. I'll pull up some numbers later

Why are you assuming performance is irrelevant?  Ferrari and Lambo have no manuals, are you going to tell me they don't care about performance too?  And if performance is irrelevant, why has Lexus dumped considerable money into developing hi-po engines in the F 5.0 and the LFA?  Bench racing is not nor has ever been irrelevant.  If you open up a comparison between cars and see that one car, the Lexus, is considerably slower at every engine level than its direct competitors that is not "irrelevant".  If performance was irrelevant than cars would not be getting faster and faster and more and more powerful every iteration.

Lexus can't sell on only reliability and they know this.  Eventually there will be something that's either A) more reliable or B) not materially less reliable.  They can either sit here and only rely on that, or they can try and succeed at other things too.

GoCougs

The Japanese (near) luxury marques have mos def failed in the realm of powertrain development. No question. Until just now each has been flogging the same N/A V6 and lackluser transmissions for more than a decade, and IMO that has been at the core of the slide, esp. with Acura and Infiniti.

SJ_GTI

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 07, 2019, 11:13:47 AM
Are people really buying leasing German compact sedans for performance and driving engagement? All 3 German brands don't offer sticks in their "sport" sedans. I don't think anyone does anymore. So in terms of actually selling cars all this bench racing stuff is irrelevant.

I mean, I did...I just went with the Golf R this time around because it seemed the best fit for me. IMHO it is pretty comparable the the BMW/Audi/MB entry level compacts, but it was available with a manual (or in BMW's case, more readily available).

r0tor

I guess BMW has a raging performance car fan base compared to Lexus because they like the badge design better - not the actual performance
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HurricaneSteve

I could have bought a 3-Series (or higher) but instead chose to get 2 different cars that fulfilled my needs better. My wife could buy just about any car on the market with cash and still chooses to drive an econobox because it's pretty much guaranteed to get her to work and back every day. Even if BMW or Audi made a car that worked size wise, just the hassle of having to use the warranty and knowing that I likely owned a ticking time bomb after the car was paid off was enough to deter me from getting one. Same with VW. The local dealers were offering brand new GTI's for around 20-21 grand a couple of years ago and I still couldn't pull the trigger.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 07, 2019, 11:13:47 AM
Are people really buying leasing German compact sedans for performance and driving engagement? All 3 German brands don't offer sticks in their "sport" sedans. I don't think anyone does anymore. So in terms of actually selling cars all this bench racing stuff is irrelevant.

Lexus can and does sell on reliability- that is how they curb stomped the Germans upon their debut and how they have carved out big profitable market share. Up until the Model 3 the ES has been the top selling midsize luxury sedan for decades. RX is the midsize luxury CUV king, NX is in the mix in the compacts. Me and MCM are the only kinds of idiots taking our luxury cars to track days... all this performance stuff is irrelevant

Reliability isn't as relevant as it used to be with leasing getting more and more prevalent, but I think leasing and what seems like planned obsolescence on the German's part create a feedback cycle. German luxury cars lose value way faster than Japanese luxury cars as a result. I'll pull up some numbers later

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Xer0 on March 07, 2019, 11:35:57 AM
Why are you assuming performance is irrelevant?  Ferrari and Lambo have no manuals, are you going to tell me they don't care about performance too?  And if performance is irrelevant, why has Lexus dumped considerable money into developing hi-po engines in the F 5.0 and the LFA?  Bench racing is not nor has ever been irrelevant.  If you open up a comparison between cars and see that one car, the Lexus, is considerably slower at every engine level than its direct competitors that is not "irrelevant".  If performance was irrelevant than cars would not be getting faster and faster and more and more powerful every iteration.

Lexus can't sell on only reliability and they know this.  Eventually there will be something that's either A) more reliable or B) not materially less reliable.  They can either sit here and only rely on that, or they can try and succeed at other things too.
Performance isn't relevant to the average luxury buyer. The fact that you had to jump to sports cars and hi po models in a discussion about run of the mill BMWs speaks to this.

You look at the breakout of used F30s on Cars.com.... 3500 of those are 320is or 328ds. 6500 are 328/330is, 1400 are 335/340is and I think there are 500 M3s. If the "sport" sedan market is so performance crazy why did the weaksauce 320i outsell the hot rod 6 banger 3s by nearly 2 to 1? It shouldn't even exist by your logic. The reality is the bulk of luxury buyers don't give a shit :huh: A 320i is quick enough to commute in and has a luxury badge... the latter of which being something that actually matters to buyers/leasees.

Lexus sells on a lot more than reliability. Lexuses are luxurious, well built, well designed and very good value. BMW has plenty going for it that has nothing to do with performance. This "performance sells" trap is exactly why Cadillac and Jaguar are on death's door. People don't care.
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