Ex-VW boss Ferdinand Piëch dead at 82

[cawimmer430]

It's not in the international news yet, but it's on German sites.

Link: https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article199200951/Ex-VW-Chef-Ferdinand-Piech-ist-gestorben.html

[Galaxy]

Even if he was sometimes a bit difficult he ran VW like a hobby. Though only person recently in the car industry that comes to mind that was similar to Piëch was Bob Lutz, but Lutz never had the power.

[12,000 RPM]

For better or worse, one of the last of a dying breed. Like if someone handed the keys of a real company to an internet armchair car exec.

[cawimmer430]

Like if someone handed the keys of a real company to an internet armchair car exec.

You know what that would mean, right?

A brown RWD 50:50 weight balanced naturally aspirated V8 6-speed manual wagon - and nothing else. No SUVs, no minivans, no economy cars etc. 

[12,000 RPM]

You know what that would mean, right?

A brown RWD 50:50 weight balanced naturally aspirated V8 6-speed manual wagon - and nothing else. No SUVs, no minivans, no economy cars etc. 

Don't forget the diesel V12 version.

You joke but Piech kind of did that for real with the Passat W8 (aka the Passat Why Would You Do That). And the Q7 V12 TDI. Dude was a true psycho and I can't help but respect him for it.

[Eye of the Tiger]

You know what that would mean, right?

A brown RWD 50:50 weight balanced naturally aspirated V8 6-speed manual wagon - and nothing else. No SUVs, no minivans, no economy cars etc. 

The perfect car

[cawimmer430]

The perfect car

Which existed. 


540i Touring

[cawimmer430]

Don't forget the diesel V12 version.

You joke but Piech kind of did that for real with the Passat W8 (aka the Passat Why Would You Do That). And the Q7 V12 TDI. Dude was a true psycho and I can't help but respect him for it.

Yeah, the Passat W8... cool car, total sales flop. After that came a Passat R36 IIRC, not sure how that sold but I've only seen one; ever.

[Galaxy]

The Touareg Mk1 is another one of this achievements, which was actually built to function as a serious Offroader.

But his Masterpiece has to be the Phaeton and the Glass Factory.





It was structurally one of the best cars of the era, bested only by the Veyron and the Rolls Royce Phantom. He wanted to feel absolutely no flex on that car, plus things like the over engineered AC system which could maintain 20 Celsius in the summer without blowing air at the passengers, because he hated drafts.

Unfortunately his hatred of feeling air movements were also the reason why Cabrios were lacking at VW AG during his reign. Audi dragged the 80 Cabrio from the late 80s till the year 2000. VW was stuck with the Frankenstein cabrio. A MK III Golf with the front end of a MK. IV grafted onto it. 

[AltinD]

Don't forget the diesel V12 version.

You joke but Piech kind of did that for real with the Passat W8 (aka the Passat Why Would You Do That). And the Q7 V12 TDI. Dude was a true psycho and I can't help but respect him for it.

Don't forget the W12 powered Touareg. Same power and performance as the Cayenne Turbo S of the era.

[AltinD]

After that came a Passat R36 IIRC, not sure how that sold but I've only seen one; ever.

In Dubai there were way more R36 on the road than the V6 models as my former car. I would have bought one, it was within my budget, but it was only introduced there a few months latter from my purchase. Loved my 2008 V6 FSI 4Motion in Highline trim though, regardless.

[r0tor]

The Touareg Mk1 is another one of this achievements, which was actually built to function as a serious Offroader.

Speaking of which... https://youtu.be/dS2vUaGthUo

[r0tor]

I also can't help but think one day the phaeton will be a collectors car... That thing is just too overengineered and overbuilt (and rare) to be forgotten

[cawimmer430]

In Dubai there were way more R36 on the road than the V6 models as my former car. I would have bought one, it was within my budget, but it was only introduced there a few months latter from my purchase. Loved my 2008 V6 FSI 4Motion in Highline trim though, regardless.

I've only ever seen one on the streets of Munich. Didn't even know they made them until I saw this one! 

[12,000 RPM]

I also can't help but think one day the phaeton will be a collectors car... That thing is just too overengineered and overbuilt (and rare) to be forgotten

You are 1000% right, especially a running low mileage W12.

[RomanChariot]

I also can't help but think one day the phaeton will be a collectors car... That thing is just too overengineered and overbuilt (and rare) to be forgotten

Unfortunately, they looked like a Passat. I have only seen one of them in person and it took me a minute to realize it wasn't a Passat. The length was what first gave it away. People spending that kind of money generally want a car that looks special.

[AltinD]

Yeah, identical indeed

[Galaxy]

I think it was a mistake getting rid of the round elements of the Phaeton's rear lights for the facelift.

[AltinD]

^^ Not only the rear. The front redesign was horrible too. The car lost it stateness/class and became more of a regular large sedan.

[12,000 RPM]

Nobody said they were identical, just close enough for people to easily confuse the two. Or at the minimum, see the Phaeton as something like a Volkswagen competitor to the Avalon (which honestly it should have been) rather than a Bentley in Passat's clothing.

Once you get past $50K or so, especially in sedans, brand matters. Nobody wanted or asked for a six figure Volkswagen.

[Xer0]

I also can't help but think one day the phaeton will be a collectors car... That thing is just too overengineered and overbuilt (and rare) to be forgotten

No way this thing becomes a future classic.  Future classics are all about emotions and this car had none.  Over-engineered 15 years ago means squat now since everything has caught up and after you take that away there is nothing left but a boring looking luxury sedan that may or may not have a blown W12.

[Galaxy]

Future classics are all about emotions and this car had none. 

I disagree with that I find the Phaeton very emotional.

[12,000 RPM]

No way this thing becomes a future classic.  Future classics are all about emotions and this car had none.  Over-engineered 15 years ago means squat now since everything has caught up and after you take that away there is nothing left but a boring looking luxury sedan that may or may not have a blown W12.

Classic cars are about stories. They are about how well the capture and represent the time they were in. Does the Phaeton not have a story? Is it not the complete and perfect encapsulation of Piech's insanity?

I think Phaetons, especially fully loaded W12 ones, are definite future classics. They will be worth more in the future than any other vehicle with that engine, just based on the sheer insanity of a six figure 12 cylinder Volkswagen. It's about as un-Volks-wagen as you could get and Piech forced it through.

[Laconian]

It's about as un-Volks-wagen as you could get and Piech forced it through.

Reliability-wise, it is VW incarnate.

[12,000 RPM]

That will only help with the rarity! A clean one will make a VW master tech very rich some day.

[Xer0]

Classic cars are about stories. They are about how well the capture and represent the time they were in. Does the Phaeton not have a story? Is it not the complete and perfect encapsulation of Piech's insanity?

I think Phaetons, especially fully loaded W12 ones, are definite future classics. They will be worth more in the future than any other vehicle with that engine, just based on the sheer insanity of a six figure 12 cylinder Volkswagen. It's about as un-Volks-wagen as you could get and Piech forced it through.

Okay Tyrion  .

I don't see how the Pheaton overshadows other notable Piech moments in the same time frame like, oh, I don't know, the Veyron.  This dude was involved, in pretty considerable fashion, in almost everything noteworthy that has happened in VWAG for the last 30 years.  The Pheaton's only interesting in that it failed so spectacularly.

I disagree with that I find the Phaeton very emotional.

Well lucky for you, I think you'll be able to find them pretty cheaply 

[12,000 RPM]

Okay Tyrion  .

I don't see how the Pheaton overshadows other notable Piech moments in the same time frame like, oh, I don't know, the Veyron.  This dude was involved, in pretty considerable fashion, in almost everything noteworthy that has happened in VWAG for the last 30 years.  The Pheaton's only interesting in that it failed so spectacularly.

The Veyron and Phaeton are 2 sides of the same coin of Piech's insanity. They both represent what happens when dude gets free reign. Neither make any sense whatsoever but both are completely insane and awe inspiring. Veyron appeals to the same people who think the Beatles are the best band or Star Wars is the best movie series. Phaeton is a little more... cerebral. I would put the V10 TDI Touareg and V12 TDI Q7 in that same category.

Time will tell which one of us is right but from what I'm seeing W12 Phaetons are already starting to outprice similar age/condition W12 A8s

[Xer0]

The Veyron and Phaeton are 2 sides of the same coin of Piech's insanity. They both represent what happens when dude gets free reign. Neither make any sense whatsoever but both are completely insane and awe inspiring. Veyron appeals to the same people who think the Beatles are the best band or Star Wars is the best movie series. Phaeton is a little more... cerebral. I would put the V10 TDI Touareg and V12 TDI Q7 in that same category.

Time will tell which one of us is right but from what I'm seeing W12 Phaetons are already starting to outprice similar age/condition W12 A8s

Yeah, I'm not seeing it.  I see all of 5 W12 Phaetons for the sale in the US, ranging from a high of 20K with 85K miles to a low of 13K with 91K miles This is right in line with what 2004-2006 A8 W12's are going for.  Keep in mind, the Phaeton sold fewer total units in the US than the A8 did in just one year so its also much much rarer.  Sounds like wishful thinking honestly.