Ghosn ghosted

[Laconian]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/30/business/carlos-ghosn-left-japan.html

[veeman]

Very bad look for the Japanese govt.  He's out of their reach forever. 

[MX793]

The Japanese legal system is pretty shady.  Their practices would be considered a civil rights violation in many western nations.

[MrH]

This story is crazy.  Yeah, the more I read about Japan's legal system, the more I don't blame him, no matter whether he's guilty or not.  Their legal system is wild.

[GoCougs]

Got some cultural training just before spending all my time in Japan, which included the legal system (i.e., beware of doing illegal things there).

In the Japanese legal system, if you did it, you're guilty, and the system, esp. defense lawyers, are there to make sure the proceedings are orderly and truthful. It's virtually impossible to weasel your way out of it.  The Japanese system is inherently orderly and guilty vs. not guilty.

In the US system, you're guilty only if convicted, and the system, esp. defense lawyers, are there to make sure the proceedings are as chaotic and untruthful as possible. It's not uncommon to weasel your way out of it. The US system is inherently adversarial and win vs. lose.

I doubt Japan has a version of the Mossad, but the risk is he has to run again from the shit hole that is Lebanon, and ends up in a country that does have an extradition treaty with Japan.

He'll be back in Japan at some point. You can't be an international racketeer of that scale and scope and hope that running will save you.

[cawimmer430]

Off topic, but There's even a celebrity cannibal running around free in Japan.


Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issei_Sagawa

[WookieOnRitalin]

Got some cultural training just before spending all my time in Japan, which included the legal system (i.e., beware of doing illegal things there).

In the Japanese legal system, if you did it, you're guilty, and the system, esp. defense lawyers, are there to make sure the proceedings are orderly and truthful. It's virtually impossible to weasel your way out of it.  The Japanese system is inherently orderly and guilty vs. not guilty.

In the US system, you're guilty only if convicted, and the system, esp. defense lawyers, are there to make sure the proceedings are as chaotic and untruthful as possible. It's not uncommon to weasel your way out of it. The US system is inherently adversarial and win vs. lose.

I doubt Japan has a version of the Mossad, but the risk is he has to run again from the shit hole that is Lebanon, and ends up in a country that does have an extradition treaty with Japan.

He'll be back in Japan at some point. You can't be an international racketeer of that scale and scope and hope that running will save you.

Sounds like the Cardassian legal system.

I wonder if Advocate Kovat is still representing offenders.

[MrH]

He snuck out in an instrument case of some sort! This story is fascinating

[Galaxy]

Sounds like the Cardassian legal system.

I wonder if Advocate Kovat is still representing offenders.

I was just going to reply.

"I'm here to help you concede the wisdom of the state, to prepare you to accept the inevitable with equanimity. There is an old Cardassian expression. Confession is good for the soul. But it's also good for the populace to see people like you confess. It makes them feel better about themselves. It makes their lives more bearable."
– Public Conservator Kovat

"On Cardassia, the verdict is always known before the trial begins. And it's always the same."
"In that case, why bother with a trial at all?"
"Because the people demand it. They enjoy watching justice triumph over evil every time. They find it comforting."
– Gul Dukat and Commander Benjamin Sisko.

[Soup DeVille]

I always thought the Cardassian system was inspired by the inquisition (and certain other European fads).

Inquisitors were thought to be guided by God; so if they suspected you, that suspicion was put there by God and carried the same weight as conviction. The confessions, the trials: they weren't to prove the guilt of the accused, but to show the righteousness of the accusers.

[MX793]

I always thought the Cardassian system was inspired by the inquisition (and certain other European fads).

Inquisitors were thought to be guided by God; so if they suspected you, that suspicion was put there by God and carried the same weight as conviction. The confessions, the trials: they weren't to prove the guilt of the accused, but to show the righteousness of the accusers.

Which sounds a lot like the Japanese legal system.

Suspects can be detained for up to 20 days without being charged with a crime.  No bail unless an indictment has been issued.  And upon release, even with bail, they can be re-detained at any time for essentially the same charges they were arrested for the first time ("new evidence" is enough to re-arrest and reset the 20 day detention clock), meaning that detainment can be effectively indefinite.  Interrogations lasting 8+ hours a day.  Suspects are not permitted to have a lawyer present during interrogation.  Confessions are written by the investigators, not the accused.

[GoCougs]

Well, if you can't do the time...

The US legal system is quite awful, esp. for the poor (both victims and criminals). It's one of the extremely few things much the rest of the West (including Japan) usually does better.

Ghosn was accustomed to racketeering with impunity, so of course he'll run like a coward. It's not going to end well for him. If the Japanese make up their minds about you en masse, it's not going to end well.

[Soup DeVille]

The way you pivot effortlessly from "everything the government does is immoral" to idolizing authoritarianism is both impressive and disconcerting.

[MX793]

Well, if you can't do the time...

The US legal system is quite awful, esp. for the poor (both victims and criminals). It's one of the extremely few things much the rest of the West (including Japan) usually does better.

Ghosn was accustomed to racketeering with impunity, so of course he'll run like a coward. It's not going to end well for him. If the Japanese make up their minds about you en masse, it's not going to end well.

Which sounds great except when you didn't do the crime, are falsely arrested, detained, and interrogated for weeks on end without legal representation until you are finally coerced into a false confession written by someone else.

[GoCougs]

The way you pivot effortlessly from "everything the government does is immoral" to idolizing authoritarianism is both impressive and disconcerting.

You'd have to admit though such a thing is only barely more masturbatory than misrepresenting a person's POV though.

[GoCougs]

Which sounds great except when you didn't do the crime, are falsely arrested, detained, and interrogated for weeks on end without legal representation until you are finally coerced into a false confession written by someone else.

That happens all the time in the US too; well, that is, to the poor. In fact, when the fundamental underpinning of the legal system is inquisition (truth) vs. adversarial (win vs. lose), the false/excess positive rate is vastly lower (read: the proverbial tip of the iceberg that is the epic numbers of death row inmates that have been cleared).

[Soup DeVille]

You'd have to admit though such a thing is only barely more masturbatory than misrepresenting a person's POV though.

To misrepresent your point of view, I'd have to understand it first; which I don't, despite a fair amount of effort.

Which again, in its own way, is impressive.

[Morris Minor]

I'll take an imperfect common law adversarial legal system over an imperfect civil inquisitorial system any day

[NomisR]

And that's also completely ignoring that the prosecutors under the inquisitorial system doesn't take the adversarial approach just for "the win"..

[FoMoJo]

Just another entitled crook. 

[GoCougs]

And that's also completely ignoring that the prosecutors under the inquisitorial system doesn't take the adversarial approach just for "the win"..

In the least a common law system is generally/theoretically more responsive to changing mores and culture.

As such, the US legal system is about what it should be based on the recent and present American themes - bureaucracy, corporatism, entitlement ("rights"), always having to win.

And just think, the US family courts are by far the worst of all.

[veeman]

Huge embarrassment for Japan.  I wouldn't be surprised if they turn the economic screws on Lebanon and force Ghosn to leave for another country. 

[GoCougs]

Forgot the Yakuza - not the Mossad but they are very nationalistic...