Porsche Wants Synthetic Fuels To Be Used By ICE-Powered Cars In The Future

Started by cawimmer430, December 08, 2020, 07:30:03 AM

cawimmer430

Bless them.  :wub:  :ohyeah:


Porsche Wants Synthetic Fuels To Be Used By ICE-Powered Cars In The Future

In the not too distant future, the vast majority of new vehicles sold will be electric, hybrids, or hydrogen-powered. However, Porsche is investigating ways to keep ICE-powered cars on the road by using advanced synthetic fuels.

The German car manufacturer first announced its plans to research synthetic fuels back in September and has since revealed that it already has a pilot program involving various classic Porsche models that are using synthetic fuels.

During a recent interview with Hagerty, Porsche chief executive Oliver Blume said that ICE vehicles will continue to be driven in the future.

"We believe that synthetic fuels produced with 100% renewable energy have the potential to be an important element [in the future]," Blume explained. "For this reason, we are conducting research and development activities. 70% of the cars we have ever built are still on the road, and for many years to come there will be cars powered by combustion engines."

The synthetic fuel being developed by Porsche is made by producing hydrogen and combining it with carbon captured from the air to create methanol, which is then transformed into a gasoline substitute to power cars. Porsche is looking to make this synthetic fuel in factories powered by wind and solar energy.

The main problem that needs to be overcome is price.

"The only problem we still have is price, which is still higher than 10 dollars per liter," Blume revealed. Porsche is working to bring this down to less than $2 per liter to ensure it's not much more expensive than petrol or diesel.

"We already have a pilot [program] running historic 911s, from the 993 series, with very good results. We're also looking for partners. They'll take care of the technology, and at the end they'll produce the fuel. Our task will be to find the right specifications so that these fuels will be able to run in our combustion engines," Porsche's boss added.

Blume admits that there is still a long way to go to perfect synthetic fuels but believes it could be available to the public in about 10 years.


Link: https://www.carscoops.com/2020/12/porsche-wants-synthetic-fuels-to-be-used-by-ice-powered-cars-in-the-future/
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

Laconian

But why? EV R&D won't stand still for ten years. It's already at hypercar performance levels. In ten years ICE performance will seem even more obsolete
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

SJ_GTI

Quote from: Laconian on December 08, 2020, 09:51:47 AM
But why? EV R&D won't stand still for ten years. It's already at hypercar performance levels. In ten years ICE performance will seem even more obsolete

The way I read the article is that this is something they want for existing/classic cars so they can stay on the road and be driven even after EV's take over the planet (and galaxy).

Laconian

Quote from: SJ_GTI on December 08, 2020, 09:58:57 AM
The way I read the article is that this is something they want for existing/classic cars so they can stay on the road and be driven even after EV's take over the planet (and galaxy).

Yeah, you're right, my smartphone skim reading sucked. Plant-based ethanol would probably work fine though?
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

CaminoRacer

Quote from: Laconian on December 08, 2020, 10:09:37 AM
Yeah, you're right, my smartphone skim reading sucked. Plant-based ethanol would probably work fine though?

Yeah, it seems like the Corn Belt already got this figured out.
1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV, 2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance

MX793

Quote from: SJ_GTI on December 08, 2020, 09:58:57 AM
The way I read the article is that this is something they want for existing/classic cars so they can stay on the road and be driven even after EV's take over the planet (and galaxy).

This.

Synth fuel is extremely energy intensive, it's not viable for mass production.  Small quantities, at great cost, for classic car owners so they can drive their classic car a few nice weekends a year might be a viable business case.  It won't be viable for someone who wants to daily drive an ICE car unless they are quite wealthy.  I expect this to be a specialty product, like VP race fuels, not something that will be sold at the pump at any fuel station in the world.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Laconian

I can't see there being a big enough demand to justify the cost of running a refinery.

Whereas making ethanol is just making booze, and we're never going to stop doing that..
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

MX793

Quote from: Laconian on December 08, 2020, 11:08:12 AM
I can't see there being a big enough demand to justify the cost of running a refinery.

Whereas making ethanol is just making booze, and we're never going to stop doing that..

Running ethanol through an engine not specifically designed for it will destroy an engine.  Even E10 can be harmful for classic, carburetted motors.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

r0tor

2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

SJ_GTI

Quote from: r0tor on December 08, 2020, 11:29:24 AM
How exactly is ethanol a new fuel and why is it being reinvented

Quote from: MX793 on December 08, 2020, 11:27:36 AM
Running ethanol through an engine not specifically designed for it will destroy an engine.  Even E10 can be harmful for classic, carburetted motors.

I don't think Porsche is thinking about ethanol. I think they are hoping/researching for something that will be closer to gasoline.

MX793

Quote from: SJ_GTI on December 08, 2020, 11:38:29 AM
I don't think Porsche is thinking about ethanol. I think they are hoping/researching for something that will be closer to gasoline.

Correct, they want synthesized petrol.  Ethanol/biofuel is more economically viable and less costly to produce as a combustible fuel for ICE use, but not viable for older cars even today without overhauling the motors to run on it (seals are the main issue).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on December 08, 2020, 11:29:24 AM
How exactly is ethanol a new fuel and why is it being reinvented

They aren't talking about ethanol.  They want to synthesize gasoline (octane) from recaptured atmospheric carbon plus hydrogen and oxygen (water).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Laconian

Well, they said they'd be converting methanol to fake gas. You can easily get methanol through less hand wavey means.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

CaminoRacer

My El Camino doesn't have any issue with E10.
Seems easier to fiddle with old carbs to run ethanol or methanol than make fake gas.
1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV, 2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance

MX793

Quote from: Laconian on December 08, 2020, 11:52:50 AM
Well, they said they'd be converting methanol to fake gas. You can easily get methanol through less hand wavey means.

But their way is "carbon neutral".
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Laconian

Quote from: MX793 on December 08, 2020, 12:04:53 PM
But their way is "carbon neutral".

Yeah, but it's kind of a silly aspiration for seldom-driven garage queens? All that hard work will be completely undone in a month thanks to a single Carnival cruise ship burning bunker oil.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

MX793

Quote from: Laconian on December 08, 2020, 12:25:38 PM
Yeah, but it's kind of a silly aspiration for seldom-driven garage queens? All that hard work will be completely undone in a month thanks to a single Carnival cruise ship burning bunker oil.

Cruise ships should convert back to wind power.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

cawimmer430

In my opinion there is a solid case for synthetic carbon neutral fuels for internal combustion engines. My main arguments are these:

First, millions of people will still depend on their ICE cars for mobility for decades to come and are not in a position to buy or charge an EV (no home garage etc.). Governments want to reduce CO2 emissions? Then would it not make sense if their cars ran on synthetic gasoline/diesel? This fuel also burns cleaner than oil-derived gasoline/diesel because it's chemically more pure.

Renewable energy sources are popping up all over, and with excess power from wind and solar these synthetic fuels can be easily produced. And the poor energy conversion efficiency of ICE engines is irrelevant if the fuel is produced from excess clean renewable energy. Let's not forget that these liquid fuels have a higher energy density than the best current batteries and weigh less. That's gotta count for something.



Second, EVs are not gonna take off in developing and poorer nations. No way. I don't even see EVs taking off in countries who have large oil reserves. Why should they invest in an expensive technology when they have cheap and plentiful oil in the ground? It's really only the Western World and some developed nations in Asia who are so hysterical over climate change.

But let's assume that these poorer countries are going to join forces in the fight against climate change. EVs won't work there for decades, if at all. So it makes perfect sense for their existing fleets of ICE cars to use carbon neutral synthetic fuels. If mass production of these fuels can be achieved with clean energy, then it's not an issue in my opinion. And Porsche feels the same way, and they're a company with some of the brightest, smartest and most innovative engineers.



And yes, synthetic fuels are gonna be essential for also keeping our classics running. It's a much better alternative than converting them to EVs, which I think is an automotive sin. Part of the experience of owning a classic is enjoying that internal combustion engine.
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

Soup DeVille

Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

MX793

Quote from: cawimmer430 on December 08, 2020, 07:27:55 PM
In my opinion there is a solid case for synthetic carbon neutral fuels for internal combustion engines. My main arguments are these:

First, millions of people will still depend on their ICE cars for mobility for decades to come and are not in a position to buy or charge an EV (no home garage etc.). Governments want to reduce CO2 emissions? Then would it not make sense if their cars ran on synthetic gasoline/diesel? This fuel also burns cleaner than oil-derived gasoline/diesel because it's chemically more pure.

Renewable energy sources are popping up all over, and with excess power from wind and solar these synthetic fuels can be easily produced. And the poor energy conversion efficiency of ICE engines is irrelevant if the fuel is produced from excess clean renewable energy. Let's not forget that these liquid fuels have a higher energy density than the best current batteries and weigh less. That's gotta count for something.



Second, EVs are not gonna take off in developing and poorer nations. No way. I don't even see EVs taking off in countries who have large oil reserves. Why should they invest in an expensive technology when they have cheap and plentiful oil in the ground? It's really only the Western World and some developed nations in Asia who are so hysterical over climate change.

But let's assume that these poorer countries are going to join forces in the fight against climate change. EVs won't work there for decades, if at all. So it makes perfect sense for their existing fleets of ICE cars to use carbon neutral synthetic fuels. If mass production of these fuels can be achieved with clean energy, then it's not an issue in my opinion. And Porsche feels the same way, and they're a company with some of the brightest, smartest and most innovative engineers.



And yes, synthetic fuels are gonna be essential for also keeping our classics running. It's a much better alternative than converting them to EVs, which I think is an automotive sin. Part of the experience of owning a classic is enjoying that internal combustion engine.

We've already been through the math on this.  The energy requirements for synth petrol are massive.  The energy required just synthesizing the fuel (forget the energy required to harvest carbon from the air) makes it a non-starter as a mass-produced replacement for gasoline.  As a niche product, like ultra high octane race fuels, for classic car collectors, maybe.  But as a large scale fuel source, it's a pipe dream.  For developing nations that lack the power infrastructure for EVs, it's definitely not viable.  If they don't have the electrical infrastructure to charge EVs, they definitely won't have the power necessary to synthesize petrol in sufficient quantities to meet their needs.  For such countries, ICE powered by biofuel makes much more sense.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

cawimmer430

Quote from: MX793 on December 08, 2020, 08:45:48 PM
We've already been through the math on this.  The energy requirements for synth petrol are massive.  The energy required just synthesizing the fuel (forget the energy required to harvest carbon from the air) makes it a non-starter as a mass-produced replacement for gasoline.  As a niche product, like ultra high octane race fuels, for classic car collectors, maybe.  But as a large scale fuel source, it's a pipe dream.  For developing nations that lack the power infrastructure for EVs, it's definitely not viable.  If they don't have the electrical infrastructure to charge EVs, they definitely won't have the power necessary to synthesize petrol in sufficient quantities to meet their needs.  For such countries, ICE powered by biofuel makes much more sense.

Yes, we've been over this and you did the math. The pro-green energy crowd in my country likes to claim that we're already producing excess energy with our renewables (solar and wind). In fact we produce so much excess energy that we pay our neighboring countries to take our excess energy. That excess energy could be used in a number of useful ways in Germany - such as powering synthetic fuel plants or hydrogen plants to create eFuels and hydrogen. But Germany has the dumbest energy policy on the planet - even stated by the Wall Street Journal:lol:

Link: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/germany-set-have-worlds-dumbest-energy-policy-opinion


Still, eFuels have so much potential and should be furthered. The masses are not going to switch over the EVs in the next decades due to cost, infrastructure and flexibility issues. The developing world will depend on ICE vehicles for decades to come. And if we want to tackle global warming, then these vehicles must run on carbon neutral fuels. That alone makes a worthwhile and solid argument for eFuels. That and the fact that people need to remain mobile and won't be able to afford EVs in the next few years, even in the "wealthy" Western World.

Plus, ships, airplanes, helicopters, jets, tanks and other heavy-duty machines will overwhelmingly depend on liquid fuels due to the sheer fact that an EV/hydrogen setup will not make sense in them. What was that statistic? The US military burns 50 million tons of oil a day? Better start finding ways to mass-produce eFuels then!  :dance:

How do you feel about nuclear power by the way?
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

MX793

Quote from: cawimmer430 on December 08, 2020, 09:42:41 PM
Yes, we've been over this and you did the math. The pro-green energy crowd in my country likes to claim that we're already producing excess energy with our renewables (solar and wind). In fact we produce so much excess energy that we pay our neighboring countries to take our excess energy. That excess energy could be used in a number of useful ways in Germany - such as powering synthetic fuel plants or hydrogen plants to create eFuels and hydrogen. But Germany has the dumbest energy policy on the planet - even stated by the Wall Street Journal:lol:

Link: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/germany-set-have-worlds-dumbest-energy-policy-opinion


Still, eFuels have so much potential and should be furthered. The masses are not going to switch over the EVs in the next decades due to cost, infrastructure and flexibility issues. The developing world will depend on ICE vehicles for decades to come. And if we want to tackle global warming, then these vehicles must run on carbon neutral fuels. That alone makes a worthwhile and solid argument for eFuels. That and the fact that people need to remain mobile and won't be able to afford EVs in the next few years, even in the "wealthy" Western World.

Plus, ships, airplanes, helicopters, jets, tanks and other heavy-duty machines will overwhelmingly depend on liquid fuels due to the sheer fact that an EV/hydrogen setup will not make sense in them. What was that statistic? The US military burns 50 million tons of oil a day? Better start finding ways to mass-produce eFuels then!  :dance:

How do you feel about nuclear power by the way?

Germany is producing excess energy, but the laws of physics are the laws of physics.  It takes at least as much energy to synthesize a gallon of petrol as that gallon of petrol releases when it is burned.

I ran the numbers just on gasoline alone (planes and other heavy equipment run on diesel, so not included) for the US.  You would need to increase US electrical generation capacity by more than 120% to synthesize enough petrol just to replace gasoline, and that assumes that scientists are able to refine the process to it's theoretically perfect state.  Offsetting just 10% of the gasoline used by the US would require the entire electrical power output of Germany.  That did not include the energy associated with getting the CO2 and hydrogen.  That's a lot of wind farms that would need to be built.

https://www.carspin.club/index.php?topic=35646.msg2469182#msg2469182

I don't think I posted it, but I looked into Germany and they, similarly, would need to double their present power output just to replace the gasoline consumed by that country.

The amount of excess power that Germany exported last year would be enough to offset 0.5% of the gasoline used by the US, assuming a theoretically perfect process for synthesis.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

r0tor

... And after all that energy is used into making the fuel, it still is subjected to the relatively poor efficiency of an internal combustion engine...

So basically you spend 1KW of energy into making the synthetic fuel only for the engine itself to waste 700W of that energy in fiction and heat.... Where as an EV takes that 1KW directly and uses 900W of it to move your ass around
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on December 09, 2020, 06:49:27 AM
... And after all that energy is used into making the fuel, it still is subjected to the relatively poor efficiency of an internal combustion engine...

So basically you spend 1KW of energy into making the synthetic fuel only for the engine itself to waste 700W of that energy in fiction and heat.... Where as an EV takes that 1KW directly and uses 900W of it to move your ass around

Yup.  If all of Germany's excess power went towards synthesizing petrol, and you had a perfect, loss-free process, they could synthesize roughly 7 million liters per day.  If you assume the typical driver travels 30 miles, or consumes 4 liters a day, that's enough to power 1.75 million cars.  That wouldn't even cover the cars in a small country like Denmark.  If that power went towards charging EVs, it would provide enough to power 7 million EVs driven the same daily distance.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Laconian

Quote from: MX793 on December 09, 2020, 07:12:24 AM
Yup.  If all of Germany's excess power went towards synthesizing petrol, and you had a perfect, loss-free process, they could synthesize roughly 7 million liters per day.  If you assume the typical driver travels 30 miles, or consumes 4 liters a day, that's enough to power 1.75 million cars.  That wouldn't even cover the cars in a small country like Denmark.  If that power went towards charging EVs, it would provide enough to power 7 million EVs driven the same daily distance.

Even more importantly, every single liter would cost a freaking fortune. It would not do as a transitional fuel for ICE drivers who can't afford an EV.

Just make methanol out of sawdust or whatever, and call it a day
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

cawimmer430

The energy requirements are obviously an issue, which is why more research is needed here. Producing the most eFuels while using less energy. This needs to be looked into in my opinion. Nuclear power is awesome and essential - because wind and solar are not capable of sustaining an industrialized Western nation, especially if their excess power cannot be reliably stored.

eFuels are in my opinion essential, especially as a transition fuel in the Western World. Some clear-minded politicians here suggested mixing 50% eFuels with fossil fuel-derived gasoline/diesel: instant 50% CO2-reduction.

I won't back down despite the math not being on my side.  :tounge:


By the way, shouldn't you of all people be in favor of eFuels and the ICE if you love and enjoy manual transmissions so much?
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

MX793

Quote from: Laconian on December 09, 2020, 09:38:48 AM
Even more importantly, every single liter would cost a freaking fortune. It would not do as a transitional fuel for ICE drivers who can't afford an EV.

Just make methanol out of sawdust or whatever, and call it a day

Yes, I think synth fuel may have a place as a specialty fuel, like race gas today.  Not sure how many folks here have any experience buying specialty fuels.  Back when I was a kid racing motocross with my dad and brother, some of our bikes were heavily worked over and needed 108+ octane fuels.  Not something carried at the local gas station.  There was one station about 20 miles away, located near a race track, that had it "on tap".  We'd drive out with a couple of 5 gallon cans and fill them up and that would last a week or two.  Otherwise, we had to go to a specialty shop (some motorcycle shops sold it) and buy it in 5 gallon cans.  Some shops actually carried some cans in stock, sometimes you would have to special order it.  Regardless of how you got it, the price was several times what premium pump gas cost.

Looking at current prices, specialty race fuel runs about $65 for a 5-gallon can in the US.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: cawimmer430 on December 09, 2020, 09:52:07 AM
The energy requirements are obviously an issue, which is why more research is needed here. Producing the most eFuels while using less energy. This needs to be looked into in my opinion. Nuclear power is awesome and essential - because wind and solar are not capable of sustaining an industrialized Western nation, especially if their excess power cannot be reliably stored.

eFuels are in my opinion essential, especially as a transition fuel in the Western World. Some clear-minded politicians here suggested mixing 50% eFuels with fossil fuel-derived gasoline/diesel: instant 50% CO2-reduction.

I won't back down despite the math not being on my side.  :tounge:


By the way, shouldn't you of all people be in favor of eFuels and the ICE if you love and enjoy manual transmissions so much?


You keep missing the point on energy consumption.  The numbers I've been quoting are the theoretical minimum.  The best it could possibly be.  I'm not citing the energy required to synthesize fuel today, with today's technology.  I'm telling you the numbers for the best possible future state, after we've invested tons of money and time into perfecting the process.

If burning a liter of fuel releases X amount of energy, then reversing the process (rebuilding that liter of fuel chemically) will require at least the same amount of energy.  That's basic conservation of mass and energy, a fundamental law of physics.  No amount of research will allow us to reconstruct a liter of fuel for less energy than that liter will release when burned.

Energy and matter can neither be created nor destroyed, simply changed to other forms.  The equation needs to balance.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Laconian

Quote from: cawimmer430 on December 09, 2020, 09:52:07 AM
By the way, shouldn't you of all people be in favor of eFuels and the ICE if you love and enjoy manual transmissions so much?

Biofuels explode in engines just fine. Plants are already pretty good at using solar energy to trap carbon from the atmosphere.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

CaminoRacer

Quote from: MX793 on December 09, 2020, 10:04:38 AM
You keep missing the point on energy consumption.  The numbers I've been quoting are the theoretical minimum.  The best it could possibly be.  I'm not citing the energy required to synthesize fuel today, with today's technology.  I'm telling you the numbers for the best possible future state, after we've invested tons of money and time into perfecting the process.

If burning a liter of fuel releases X amount of energy, then reversing the process (rebuilding that liter of fuel chemically) will require at least the same amount of energy.  That's basic conservation of mass and energy, a fundamental law of physics.  No amount of research will allow us to reconstruct a liter of fuel for less energy than that liter will release when burned.

Energy and matter can neither be created nor destroyed, simply changed to other forms.  The equation needs to balance.

Quote from: Laconian on December 09, 2020, 10:08:26 AM
Biofuels explode in engines just fine. Plants are already pretty good at using solar energy to trap carbon from the atmosphere.

Yeah, the reason that gasoline and ethanol/methanol are so great is because planet earth and plants did the bulk of the energy gathering for us.
1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV, 2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance