Audi Could Stop Introducing New ICE Vehicles In 2026

[cawimmer430]

Nope, works great. Way lighter/quieter than my older (also electric) lawnmower. When I see people using gas lawn mowers I feel bad for them. 

When I worked in Canada ~10 years ago we had one ICE forklift and one electric forklift.  As someone recently trained on how to drive a forklift I thought the electric forklift was so much easier to use than the ICe version. Smoother, more precise, quieter,...no downside that I could see. But like cars, the guys who were used to the older (propane) gas powered forklifts swore up and down that the electric one was inferior. The only downside was that yeah...the electric forklift needed to be charged where as the gas forklift you could just swap out the propane tank. But in every other way the electric was superior. Its funny how people just don't like to change.

FWIW, our company only uses electric forklifts nowadays (leased from Toyota, FWIW).

For indoor forklifts EVs actually make more sense mainly because of emissions. It would not be financially feasible to equip these things with catalytic converters etc. to clean the emissions.

Good thing I don't need a lawnmower - I don't have a garden (and don't want one). 

[cawimmer430]

Good thing Porsche and the industry are placing some faith in synthetic fuels. There are solid arguments for them - one of them being fleet sustainability. It's better for the planet to continue to drive ICE cars which have already been produced and run them on synthetic carbon-free gasoline/Diesel.

But wait, they need so much energy in order to be produced! This is why Porsche is looking at producing these fuels in Chile. Chile has an abundance of wind and solar energy which enables them to produce 130,000 liters of synthetic fuel until the end of 2021. By 2026, they could essentially produce 500 million liters of synthetic fuel.

This is good news for us ICE fans. Let's face it, sports cars are more exciting and emotional with ICE than an electric motor (IMO).

Link: https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/webwelt/article232093735/E-Fuels-Synthetische-Kraftstoffe-Die-letzte-Hoffnung-fuer-den-Verbrenner.html

[r0tor]

Their synthetic fuel program is to offer a way to keep their customers vintage Porsches on the road.  It's not even close to something that would be mass marketed.

It's more like still being able to buy leaded gasoline to keep your 1950s car running for small trips.

[Raza]

Charging the battery definitely seems nice than refilling a little gas can every couple of months. I'll probably look at electric mowers when we move and have a yard

If I had a lawn and I didn't pay someone to mow it, I'd probably go electric too, just for that issue alone. Easier to use, no transporting gas in my car, no stinky gas hands.

[cawimmer430]

Their synthetic fuel program is to offer a way to keep their customers vintage Porsches on the road.  It's not even close to something that would be mass marketed.

It's more like still being able to buy leaded gasoline to keep your 1950s car running for small trips.

Porsche admits that initially this is to keep the iconic current and future 911s alive - with an ICE. The 911 is about driving pleasure and emotions - and this is where an ICE shines over an EV all day any day.

But several industry leaders - in the article - have stated that synthetic fuels are useful and quick way to lower our carbon emissions. They state that countries with an abundance of sun and wind are ideal places to set up wind and solar power plants which can provide the energy needed to produce synthetic fuel and hydrogen. The overall efficiency of synthetic fuels is at around 15% and hydrogen is 30% (BEV is 80%), but this does not matter when the energy used to produce them is renewable.

The future will be interesting and currently what is needed is an efficient mix of different propulsion methods. If synthetic fuels can help provide mobility to millions of motorists and their ICE, then that's good. And here in Europe fuel prices are already approaching 2 Euros per liter ($8.96 / US gallon), so paying a little more for synthetic fuels is a small price to pay.

[r0tor]

Porsche admits that initially this is to keep the iconic current and future 911s alive - with an ICE. The 911 is about driving pleasure and emotions - and this is where an ICE shines over an EV all day any day.

But several industry leaders - in the article - have stated that synthetic fuels are useful and quick way to lower our carbon emissions. They state that countries with an abundance of sun and wind are ideal places to set up wind and solar power plants which can provide the energy needed to produce synthetic fuel and hydrogen. The overall efficiency of synthetic fuels is at around 15% and hydrogen is 30% (BEV is 80%), but this does not matter when the energy used to produce them is renewable.

The future will be interesting and currently what is needed is an efficient mix of different propulsion methods. If synthetic fuels can help provide mobility to millions of motorists and their ICE, then that's good. And here in Europe fuel prices are already approaching 2 Euros per liter ($8.96 / US gallon), so paying a little more for synthetic fuels is a small price to pay.

Synthetic fuels will cost 4 or 5x that amount.  It's not a mainstream product

[CaminoRacer]

E T H A N O L

[12,000 RPM]

I still have my Z4. I do plan on replacing it soon, but with another car with a 6 speed manual and an inline 6.

I was talking about the Boxster

[MrH]

I just read the rest of this thread.  What in the fuck is going on in here?

[Raza]

I was talking about the Boxster

Not the best example—that car was sold illegally. Were it not for that, I would probably still have it. Secondly, I ended up replacing it with another six cylinder manual transmission sports car. So I'm an example of a consumer that the death of the manual and/or ICE would actually have an effect. Not my fault the rest of you lot drive minivans.

Though, to your point, I did misread F6 as I6, because I've never seen it referred to as F6 before. Always H6.

[GoCougs]

E T H A N O L

A perfect example of the catastrophe of government involvement in the market, particularly "regulation" of the environment. The damage, environmentally and otherwise, of the ethanol hegemony, is (or should be) historic.

EVs will be no different, particularly in harming lower income and rural folk.

[CaminoRacer]

A perfect example of the catastrophe of government involvement in the market, particularly "regulation" of the environment. The damage, environmentally and otherwise, of the ethanol hegemony, is (or should be) historic.

I've never been a fan of ethanol and don't think it's a good long term option, but it certainly makes more sense than synthetic gasoline.

[CaminoRacer]

Second gen advanced biofuels are probably the best shot at zero carbon gasoline type fuels for the masses. Uses plants other than corn, that aren't used for food and don't use fertilizer, and uses less energy than the synthetic fuels that Porsche is working on. It looks like second gen biofuels are estimated to cost twice as much as gasoline, instead of 3-4x for the synthetic

[cawimmer430]

We could turn algae into fuel. Tons of the stuff in the world's oceans.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvGssEM4bLg

[cawimmer430]

Terrible news.


Mercedes Will Largely Eliminate Internal Combustion Engines by The End of The Decade

Mercedes is renowned for producing great V8 and V12 engines, but their time is apparently running out.

According to Automobilwoche, the company is speeding up their switch to electric vehicles and this means internal combustion engines will largely be eliminated by the end of the decade.

Specifics are lacking, but every single model line is set to offer an electric variant. Furthermore, plug-in hybrids will be eliminated as the company will focus their efforts on pure electric vehicles.

While some automakers have set firm dates to go EV-only, Mercedes reportedly isn't ready to commit to a specific timeline. Instead, the company believes there will still be demand for internal combustion engines after 2030 in markets that lack a robust charging infrastructure.

Mercedes isn't alone in this thinking as Audi is taking a similar approach. Last month, the automaker revealed plans to phase out internal combustion engines by 2033, but noted the "combustion engine's discontinuation ... will ultimately be decided by customers and legislation." The company added they expect to see continued demand for internal combustion engines in China beyond 2033, so some ICE models may be manufactured locally after that date.

The publication said Mercedes could officially announce the move on July 22nd, but the company declined to comment to Automotive News Europe. Regardless, the automaker is expected to make a series of announcements at a strategy event and these are said to include details about new platforms as well as the development of a new operating system.



Link: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/07/mercedes-will-largely-eliminate-internal-combustions-engines-by-the-end-of-the-decade/

[Submariner]

Unfortunate, but inevitable.

[veeman]

All talk, with carefully worded "outs" such as: combustion engine's discontinuation...will ultimately be decided by customers and legislation.  Meaningless drivel.

I believe these same auto companies were just heavily fined for colluding with one another to not go beyond govt regulations for diesel emissions (they colluded to not advance the tech to get even cleaner emissions than what the govt required).

These companies are just pandering to what they believe will be the near future govt regulation anyways.  Their hand has been forced. 

Betcha 20 years from now they'll continue to supply new ICE Mercedes S classes to whomever the dictator of North Korea will be at that time and their high level minions.

[cawimmer430]

Betcha 20 years from now they'll continue to supply new ICE Mercedes S classes to whomever the dictator of North Korea will be at that time and their high level minions.

If Kim Jong Un is the key to keeping the ICE alive then.... 

[Laconian]

Why would the S class stay ICE when EV drivetrains can deliver smoothness and acceleration beyond the wildest dreams of any V12?

[cawimmer430]

Why would the S class stay ICE when EV drivetrains can deliver smoothness and acceleration beyond the wildest dreams of any V12?

How do you convince a Third World dictator sitting on 300 years worth of cheap fossil fuel oil reserves to drive an EV S-Class?

[Galaxy]

How do you convince a Third World dictator sitting on 300 years worth of cheap fossil fuel oil reserves to drive an EV S-Class?

"Oh so you bought the Beta car."

[12,000 RPM]

All talk, with carefully worded "outs" such as: combustion engine's discontinuation...will ultimately be decided by customers and legislation.  Meaningless drivel.

I believe these same auto companies were just heavily fined for colluding with one another to not go beyond govt regulations for diesel emissions (they colluded to not advance the tech to get even cleaner emissions than what the govt required).

These companies are just pandering to what they believe will be the near future govt regulation anyways.  Their hand has been forced. 

Betcha 20 years from now they'll continue to supply new ICE Mercedes S classes to whomever the dictator of North Korea will be at that time and their high level minions.

You really think they're gonna go through all that trouble to make like 10 illegal S class sales

If the big 3 markets (China, EU, USA) go electric all the car companies are going with them.

[veeman]

You really think they're gonna go through all that trouble to make like 10 illegal S class sales

If the big 3 markets (China, EU, USA) go electric all the car companies are going with them.

The issue I have with all these statements of many of the big automakers saying they're going all electric is there is nothing preventing them from "altering the deal".  EV is a trifle of total new car sales in the U.S. currently and only really significant in a handful of states.  And in 10 or 20 years, all new car sales of these same auto companies will be EV?  What?!  Mercedes last few years sells anywhere from @8000 to @15000
cars in India per year.  Not a lot but not nothing.  So if in 10 to 20 years there is no significant public EV network in India and many of the luxury homes/apartments have generators because the electric grid kinda sucks, how many buyers would want an EV Mercedes over there.  Sure some.  But most probably wouldn't.  So are you telling me Mercedes will just let go of that emerging market?  That's complete bullsh-t.  Automakers are going to do what makes them money, period.  These press statements are meaningless IMHO.  Sure they will only sell EV in Germany and France because the govt will effectively ban new ICE vehicles.  But they will find a way to put plenty of new ICE engines in their Mercedes in the 2/3 of the world where EV is not really feasible for the next 30 plus years given their piss poor electric grid, lack of money, lack of infrastructure, etc.  Like most if not all of Central America, South America, Mexico, Africa, and much of Asia. 

[veeman]

Just an anecdote of what a piss poor electric grid does to alter life a bit, even for the well off.  Many of my cousins on my Dad's side are pretty well off financially.  Millionaires when you convert their liquid assets to U.S. dollars.  Some of them have luxury German cars. Only one of my relatives has a clothes dryer at home.  Some have a washing machine but only one has a clothes dryer.  Their household help take their clothes out of the house to get them washed and dried.  My cousins who are not so wealthy have household help who washes their clothes in a soap and water bucket and hang them on a clothesline.  Also almost none of my cousins have central air conditioning.    Most of them have individual rooms in their home which are air conditioned but not the common areas.  And  India is hot as hell.  The point is, the electric grid is just OK.  It's not nearly robust enough at this time for EV and I don't foresee it being so for many many years.

[FoMoJo]

Small Nuclear Reactors have been in the news lately.

Small modular reactors (SMRs) are defined as nuclear reactors generally 300 MWe equivalent or less, designed with modular technology using module factory fabrication, pursuing economies of series production and short construction times. This definition, from the World Nuclear Association, is closely based on those from the IAEA and the US Nuclear Energy Institute. Some of the already-operating small reactors mentioned or tabulated below do not fit this definition, but most of those described do fit it. PWR types may have integral steam generators, in which case the reactor pressure vessel needs to be larger, limiting portability from factory to site. Hence many larger PWRs such as the Rolls-Royce UK SMR have external steam generators.
.....

[GoCougs]

Remember when ethanol and hybrids were going to change it all? NOPE.

It's all fake news - whether it's existing automakers declaring they'll go all EV, or states or entire countries.

[FoMoJo]

Remember when ethanol and hybrids were going to change it all? NOPE.

It's all fake news - whether it's existing automakers declaring they'll go all EV, or states or entire countries.

Hybrids were always meant as a stopgap measure until battery technology advanced.

[r0tor]

The issue I have with all these statements of many of the big automakers saying they're going all electric is there is nothing preventing them from "altering the deal". 

Well completely gutting their development budget on anything not EV related would be a fairly big hurdle to suddenly producing new ICE cars

[veeman]

Well completely gutting their development budget on anything not EV related would be a fairly big hurdle to suddenly producing new ICE cars

They don't need to put any significant money into developing new ICE.  I think 20 to 30 years from now, in the majority of the world, you will be able to buy a new German luxury car with an ICE because EV will only be practical in areas where the EV infrastructure and electric grid is robust.  The ICE offered in the new Mercedes will probably be based on a 30 year old design and likely hybrid. 

Wealthy people in "3rd world" countries buy Mercedes too. 

[cawimmer430]

I agree 100% with Veeman.


The internal combustion engine is needlessly being destroyed by those dumb wackos in Brussels (HQ of the EU[SSR]), who are setting stupid and unrealistic goals. Everything needs to become "green" and "climate friendly". The upcoming EURO-7 emission laws with their unrealistic and physically impossible emission requirements are effectively a ban on the ICE.

As much as the German brands like to tout their "dedication to EVs" and "zero emissions", the reality is that BMW is moving ICE production to the UK, which it now out[side] of the EU. Daimler is moving ICE production to China - where I can see these engines being installed in Daimler cars that are produced in China for Asian markets. Volkswagen is the biggest loudmouth about their EVs, but they recently admitted that their entire lineup in South America and in South Africa will be ICE for decades to come. Bottom line, the rest of the not-so-hysterical world will continue to drive ICEs for decades.

There's zero incentive in those markets to get an EV. The EV infrastructure in Europe is a joke and it's "expanding" at a very slow rate. Norway is the shining light followed by the Netherlands IIRC. France, Germany and the UK are so-so, the rest of Europe is way behind in expanding the EV infrastructure.