EV Pushback

[GoCougs]

What would you call it?

Fascism, of which, "state control of private property" is a preeminent definition.

[Laconian]

And where's the concern about the streetcar operator jobs which went away when GM lobbied the governments to rip everything up for private automobile roads?

[FoMoJo]

Fascism, of which, "state control of private property" is a preeminent definition.

Nonsense, it called a "Modern Capitalist Society ~ a type of capitalist society in which a capitalist class of "new elites" and "old elites" concerned with maximizing their wealth secures a political system that serves and protects their interests.

[Soup DeVille]

Nonsense, it called a "Modern Capitalist Society ~ a type of capitalist society in which a capitalist class of "new elites" and "old elites" concerned with maximizing their wealth secures a political system that serves and protects their interests.

A term invented in the last 10 years, by people of no real noteworthiness.

[Soup DeVille]

And where's the concern about the streetcar operator jobs which went away when GM lobbied the governments to rip everything up for private automobile roads?

Almost every job in existence today either did not exist 100 years ago, or has so fundamentally changed it barely resembles what it was.
There is no reason to think this pattern will not continue.

Oh, and many people did protest the removal of the streetcars in Detroit. Enough so that a vestigial street car service ran here until the '90s.

[GoCougs]

Nonsense, it called a "Modern Capitalist Society ~ a type of capitalist society in which a capitalist class of "new elites" and "old elites" concerned with maximizing their wealth secures a political system that serves and protects their interests.

That's fascism too - a "political system" that protects a class is (also) by definition state control of private property.

[FoMoJo]

That's fascism too - a "political system" that protects a class is (also) by definition state control of private property.

I believe that there is a distinction.  A Modern Capitalist Society is where money, the wealthy, control the government whereas Fascism is where a dictatorial government controls the wealth as well as the people.

[MrH]

Yeah, tell me with a straight face that it's not a shit job.

Creative destruction is the MO of capitalism. Private industry engages in it on a scale that's orders of magnitude worse than EVs nuking grease monkeys' temp work. Did you read what I said in the following sentence about how society needs to reckon with this fact? It's elitist to look the other way and pretend that everyone is bootstrappy and educated enough to adapt to their jobs being deprecated.

Jobs are evaporating, but jobs are being created, too - the responsible thing to do is invest in guiding the victims of capitalism to the new opportunities that it affords. Otherwise we just get stuck with the losses and get none of the wins.

This isn't creative destruction.  It's legislative destruction.

[shp4man]

Just FYI, EVs require less maintenance, but they break just as often as ICE cars. Ask me how I know. 

[NomisR]

This isn't creative destruction.  It's legislative destruction.

We're not letting the market decide.. the market is deciding in some part but the government is forcing a lot of it. 

[Soup DeVille]

I believe that there is a distinction.  A Modern Capitalist Society is where money, the wealthy, control the government whereas Fascism is where a dictatorial government controls the wealth as well as the people.

What you're describing is an oligarchy; which to be fair, can be applied both to fascism and to modern US; but I think we're straying from the point.

Government actions are specifically not capitalist in nature; whether or not those actions benefit the rich is irrelevant.

[FoMoJo]

What you're describing is an oligarchy; which to be fair, can be applied both to fascism and to modern US; but I think we're straying from the point.

Government actions are specifically not capitalist in nature; whether or not those actions benefit the rich is irrelevant.

As I understand it, Fascism is a political system, usually a brutal dictatorship, that nominally controls the economy more or less by proxy; essentially a state controlled economy.  An Oligarchy is a group of wealthy individuals that control the country. 

Capitalism is, of course, an economical system that can function within different political systems, but normally within a representative democracy.  Modern capitalism is said to be "a type of capitalist society in which a capitalist class of "new elites" and "old elites" concerned with maximizing their wealth secures a political system that serves and protects their interests."

There is little doubt that wealthy individuals/groups have a significant influence over political legislation, even within a representative democracy.

That's how I see it, though it may not quite fit some definitions.

[GoCougs]

I believe that there is a distinction.  A Modern Capitalist Society is where money, the wealthy, control the government whereas Fascism is where a dictatorial government controls the wealth as well as the people.

That's all the same.

[FoMoJo]

That's all the same.

Fascism was founded as a brutal totalitarian dictatorship that controlled the economy as well as the public.  Not so a Modern Capitalist (economic) system which is concerned primarily with private wealth.  It functions within a democratic political system by influencing who is elected and what decisions/bills are made into law.  Look at most Western democracies as examples.

[NomisR]

Fascism was founded as a brutal totalitarian dictatorship that controlled the economy as well as the public.  Not so a Modern Capitalist (economic) system which is concerned primarily with private wealth.  It functions within a democratic political system by influencing who is elected and what decisions/bills are made into law.  Look at most Western democracies as examples.

Are you not paying attention to what's going on in the last 10 years?  Or even 5 years? 

[GoCougs]

Fascism was founded as a brutal totalitarian dictatorship that controlled the economy as well as the public.  Not so a Modern Capitalist (economic) system which is concerned primarily with private wealth.  It functions within a democratic political system by influencing who is elected and what decisions/bills are made into law.  Look at most Western democracies as examples.

Fascism was voted into power on the backs of jobs, crime prevention, public works projects and general social stability such as schools and hospitals, and for a good portion of its existence used existing political infrastructure. Of course, things were never a fairy tale and didn't end well.

[FoMoJo]

Fascism was voted into power on the backs of jobs, crime prevention, public works projects and general social stability such as schools and hospitals, and for a good portion of its existence used existing political infrastructure. Of course, things were never a fairy tale and didn't end well.

So was Nazism, a more brutal form of Fascism.  However, they evolve very quickly into the brutal regimes that perpetrated so much evil.  Not so different from Communism, only Communism has also required a revolution in some instances.  Interesting that even now there is a resurgence in a number of nations, including Italy, towards a more Fascist state.

[NomisR]

So was Nazism, a more brutal form of Fascism.  However, they evolve very quickly into the brutal regimes that perpetrated so much evil.  Not so different from Communism, only Communism has also required a revolution in some instances.  Interesting that even now there is a resurgence in a number of nations, including Italy, towards a more Fascist state.

Or Australia back to a penal colony

[SJ_GTI]

Or Australia back to a penal colony

I haven't been really following the back and forth in this thread, but I want to say that I fully endorse and support transforming Australia back to a penal colony.

[shp4man]

They have COVID concentration camps in Australia. The cops aggressively pursue escapees, too. Damn.

[Eye of the Tiger]

They have COVID concentration camps in Australia. The cops aggressively pursue escapees, too. Damn.

Wow. Send them to the other side of the dingo fence?

[GoCougs]

Or Australia back to a penal colony

Yep, too late  .

How Australia (and New Zealand) fell so far so fast is such a shame.

[FoMoJo]

I haven't been really following the back and forth in this thread, but I want to say that I fully endorse and support transforming Australia back to a penal colony.

For who?

[SJ_GTI]

For who?

Australians

[FoMoJo]

Australians

But they're already there.

[Soup DeVille]

But they're already there.

And they can't leave!

[FoMoJo]

They have COVID concentration camps in Australia. The cops aggressively pursue escapees, too. Damn.

There you go believing politicians again.

[NomisR]

There you go believing politicians again.

They're still saying it's a conspiracy theory that these camps exists while at the same time they're touting these camps as a summer camp vacation for these people being quarantined. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

To heck with electric power. Everything should be gas powered!

https://youtu.be/XbCLokA3XP8

[FoMoJo]

They're still saying it's a conspiracy theory that these camps exists while at the same time they're touting these camps as a summer camp vacation for these people being quarantined. 

There are facilities (hotels) where people arriving in Australia may be quarantined under certain circumstances.  This occurs in a number of countries with variations.