PHEVs

[Laconian]

Maybe we need a thread for random PHEV chatter. They're cool, too!

[Laconian]

My mom got a Niro PHEV in May after 12 years with a Prius. I just learned that she's still burning the same tank of gas that the dealer sent her home with, wildly surpassing my fuel consumption estimates that I crunched for her. She regularly drives 35 mi a day.

It's pretty impressive how a little battery goes a long way when it comes to handling actual daily real world use. The biggest sin of EVs is the upfront resource and monetary cost of range capability. PHEVs offer a better "break glass" solution IMO - just burn some fossils when you're having a one-sigma driving day.

I hope that manufacturers develop the idea further with smaller, simpler range extender motors - like the i3 but not quite so pathetic.

[GoCougs]

IOW, the Chevy Volt, but virtually no one bought it (because Chevy/not Telsa). Probably will go down as one of those inventions well before its time, to be picked up and heralded by someone else. In the least in this case we can't blame the product itself. There simply too much emotion and culture wrapped up in the automobile to expect the best product to always win out.

[r0tor]

I'm more and more convinced that regular hybrid > phev > EV at this present time.

[r0tor]

Too expand... Prius vs Prius Prime vs average EV


Prius vs Prius Prime....

Prime gets 44 miles from 13KWh battery.  So here that first 44 miles will cost ~$2.60 to charge at home.  It will then get slightly worse mileage than a regular Prius.

The regular Prius gets 56 mpg.  The EV only range of the prime costs the regular Prius $2.98 at the moment and then will get better fuel mileage.

The regular hybrid has no need to hassle the owner with charging, loading of the electrical grid, installing home chargers, and Toyota can make 10 regular hybrid for the minerals needed for 1 phev.

The regular Prius weighs 400 lbs less, costs $5k less, and has an AWD option that allows it to be a year round daily driver in all parts of the country so those owners don't need a gas hog AWD winter beater

[r0tor]

Prius vs average EV...

Average EV out there has what, about 260 miles of range out of 80KWh of battery?  So 260 miles costs about $16 to charge at home.  Double that at a fast charger.

The Prius at 56 mpg will cost only $1.60 more than the home charging cost.  It will weigh >1,000 lbs less which means it will ride and handle significantly better. It has no hassle of charging or planning trips.  No home charger costs.  No electrical infrastructure or public charger issues. Toyota can make 60 Priuses for every 1 EV in terms of battery minerals.  Not to mention it costs $40k vs $50k so many more people can actually afford it.


Simply put once you hit the efficiency of a new regular hybrid Prius, nothing else makes sense at the moment... Maybe 15 years from now when battery chemistry is improved, battery recycling is an actual thing, infrastructure improvements have been made, and electrical generation gets more green - then EVs will make more sense.


Another issue is the efficiency of EVs is likely not to improve much beyond the current cars.  The drivetrains are already 90% efficient.  All that will happen is more dense batteries for longer range which means more materials and more charging capacity is needed.  ICE hybrids still probably have a decent improvement potential to go.

[veeman]

I think the amount you are tabulating it costs to charge an EV at home is incorrect.  It costs me a little over $4 to get 130 miles of range on my car when charging at home.

I agree though there is not much or any purely financial incentive to get an EV over a hybrid and while PHEV eliminates range anxiety it also requires ICE maintenance and has a small pure EV range at a relatively high cost.

[r0tor]

How the hell much is your electric at home??  I used $0.20 per KWh

[veeman]

How the hell much is your electric at home??  I used $0.20 per KWh

$0.1382 per KWh

https://www.eversource.com/content/residential/account-billing/manage-bill/about-your-bill/rates-tariffs/electric-supply-rates

[veeman]

I have been for the last week looking at what the App for my Emporium level 2 charger says.

My wife's commute is @ 130 miles round trip.  She starts off at 80% charge.  According to the App, to get back to 80% charge it has taken between 3 and 3.5 hrs of charging at a charge rate of 40A and has costed between $4 and $4.30.

 

[r0tor]

That math doesn't add up.

Also is that 13 cents per KWh all in or just generation cost?  My guess is that's generation and then you have another 6-8 cents for distribution.

[veeman]

I, and more importantly my wife, are mostly enthralled with how much nicer it is to drive the Kia EV6 than her Infiniti QX60. Lack of NVH, instant torque, active cruise control, never a need to stop for gas, makes the Infiniti feel prehistoric. 

I know the Infiniti, even for an ICE, has prehistoric tech.

I don't think I could ever go back to buying an ICE car though for local commuting. Unless an electric grid Armageddon occurs.

[veeman]

That math doesn't add up.

Also is that 13 cents per KWh all in or just generation cost?  My guess is that's generation and then you have another 6-8 cents for distribution.

You may be right about that. Not sure.

[veeman]

According to fueleconomy.gov, personalized to our driving habits, it was costing us $4850 in annual fuel costs to drive the Infiniti QX60 and now will cost $1250 in annual "fueling" costs to drive the Kia EV6.

[Morris Minor]

Channeling Robert Llewelyn...

The Prius has a reciprocating ICE engine thumping away under the hood, spewing 19lb of CO2 every 56 miles. It also requires an elaborate drilling, refining, bulk transportation, and retail distribution system which spews out even more CO2. And then, when you finally put that gallon into the tank, most of it is wasted in heat energy.

Hybrids & PHEVs are stopgaps that the oil companies & mainstream automakers would like to become permanent because they they can leverage their 120 years of drilling experience and then manufacturing vehicles with reciprocating engines thumping away under the hood.

[Laconian]

My parents' PUD delivers hydro power for 12 cents a gallon.

The Niro's battery is 9kWh and she hasn't bought any gas for three months. She'll probably end up buying maybe 50 gallons over the course of a year. Given how much she drives from the boonies that is a miniscule amount of gas.

PHEVs can be charged easily with L1 chargers which are cheap (or included with purchase) and plug into garage GFCI sockets which are plentiful.

And yeah, she gets the benefits of EV quietness while it's running on batteries. It's not fast though, and it does run through a stepped transmission which is an interesting combination of traits.

[Laconian]

Channeling Robert Llewelyn...

The Prius has a reciprocating ICE engine thumping away under the hood, spewing 19lb of CO2 every 56 miles. It also requires an elaborate drilling, refining, bulk transportation, and retail distribution system which spews out even more CO2. And then, when you finally put that gallon into the tank, most of it is wasted in heat energy.

Hybrids & PHEVs are stopgaps that the oil companies & mainstream automakers would like to become permanent because they they can leverage their 120 years of drilling experience and then manufacturing vehicles with reciprocating engines thumping away under the hood.

If the EV drivetrain keeps the ICE inert most of the time then there is no carbon cost, only manufacturing cost. This is where I think there is room for replacing the ICE with simple, small, low powered genset units that are mechanically decoupled from the drivetrain. It would run in a steady unstressed state every so often to replenish the battery and then turn off. And the unit could be a self contained module, save for the fuel tank, eliminating the rats nest of fluids and couplings and transmissions etc necessitated by standard car engines. Ideally it never turns on at all; it's provisional power for the very rare road trip.

People need power in short bursts, not sustained runs. Even with a wimpy generator the high output of the battery buffer still makes it possible.

[Laconian]

Hmm, back of the napkin math shows around 15-20kW for the generator to do 60mph at 4kWh/mi.

20kW generators are pretty big.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Hmm, back of the napkin math shows around 15-20kW for the generator to do 60mph at 4kWh/mi.

20kW generators are pretty big.

You can tow one on a trailer

[MrH]

If the EV drivetrain keeps the ICE inert most of the time then there is no carbon cost, only manufacturing cost. This is where I think there is room for replacing the ICE with simple, small, low powered genset units that are mechanically decoupled from the drivetrain. It would run in a steady unstressed state every so often to replenish the battery and then turn off. And the unit could be a self contained module, save for the fuel tank, eliminating the rats nest of fluids and couplings and transmissions etc necessitated by standard car engines. Ideally it never turns on at all; it's provisional power for the very rare road trip.

People need power in short bursts, not sustained runs. Even with a wimpy generator the high output of the battery buffer still makes it possible.

Why would you want it completely decoupled?  You need a much bigger electric motor and battery if you totally decouple.

I think Honda's hybrid system is interesting.  It mostly does what you say: just creates electricity for the electric motor.  But it can power the wheels directly, but it has no transmission (it's a single ratio).  It's basically only used at highway speeds.

[r0tor]

Channeling Robert Llewelyn...

The Prius has a reciprocating ICE engine thumping away under the hood, spewing 19lb of CO2 every 56 miles. It also requires an elaborate drilling, refining, bulk transportation, and retail distribution system which spews out even more CO2. And then, when you finally put that gallon into the tank, most of it is wasted in heat energy.

Hybrids & PHEVs are stopgaps that the oil companies & mainstream automakers would like to become permanent because they they can leverage their 120 years of drilling experience and then manufacturing vehicles with reciprocating engines thumping away under the hood.

Except that drilling, refining, ect powers most EVs

[r0tor]

So the Niro gets 31 miles miles from an 11 KWh battery.  So say 20 cent power and that's $2.20 for that first 31 miles.

A Prius would need .55 gallons to go that far.  So operating cost wise it's a tie at $4.00 per gallon gas for that first 31 miles and then the Prius is cheaper after that.

11 Priii can be made for 1 Niro battery wise.

[AutobahnSHO]

I read a breakdown in math for a Rav4: they concluded the PHEV is the least economical, followed by ICE and the regular hybrid makes most sense money-wise.

I will say- the freedom from gassing up all the time is pretty amazing. We're at a quarter tank on Mav and still have 100+ miles left.

[CaminoRacer]

Our power is 8-12 cents here 

Toyota claims PHEV and hybrids are better and they can make more of them than full EVs, but they don't make more of them. There's seemingly so much demand for them and Toyota constantly underproduces.

[r0tor]

The big pay day for EVs is basically over.  They are now selling at discounts and sitting for significant time on dealer lots.  The pricing war is on with Tesla leading the way.

I actually have to wonder if 1/2 of the current EV craze with OEMs was their miscalculated assumption margins would remain high on EVs and nobody was going to go cut throat.

I can't fault Toyota for their strategy, not to mention their home market is in no way shape or form primed for an EV environment.

[Morris Minor]

The big pay day for EVs is basically over.  They are now selling at discounts and sitting for significant time on dealer lots.  The pricing war is on with Tesla leading the way.

I actually have to wonder if 1/2 of the current EV craze with OEMs was their miscalculated assumption margins would remain high on EVs and nobody was going to go cut throat.

I can't fault Toyota for their strategy, not to mention their home market is in no way shape or form primed for an EV environment.

OEMs are ill-equipped to build EVs.

[Laconian]

BTW, the current price premium of PHEVs is outrageous and will probably come down. Growing a battery pack from 1-8kWh @ $151/kWh should only add ~$1057 to the cost (plus some extra for packaging etc.)

[GoCougs]

Why would you want it completely decoupled?  You need a much bigger electric motor and battery if you totally decouple.

I think Honda's hybrid system is interesting.  It mostly does what you say: just creates electricity for the electric motor.  But it can power the wheels directly, but it has no transmission (it's a single ratio).  It's basically only used at highway speeds.

Many systems in industry decouple the ICE from the drive train, such as modern diesel/electric locomotives, as the ICE is most efficient in a relatively narrow RPM band.

The Volt worked in the same way.

[GoCougs]

BTW, the current price premium of PHEVs is outrageous and will probably come down. Growing a battery pack from 1-8kWh @ $151/kWh should only add ~$1057 to the cost (plus some extra for packaging etc.)

But they seem expensive to me - battery + ICE + EV drive train + charging HW.

[Morris Minor]

But they seem expensive to me - battery + ICE + EV drive train + charging HW.

Lots of complexity & weight but they do provide resilience... good for those who want something to fall back on if they venture far afield and into the dangerous territory of our charging infrastructure... in all its glorious infancy.

For most people, with standard local driving patterns, they're a bit like having a backup generator for the house. You barely ever use it, and it's a pain to have to keep it maintained... but when you DO need it you really, really need it.
Like a fire extinguisher.