Honda Prologue

[MrH]

Let's not pretend Tesla doesn't abuse their customers.

[Laconian]

I've heard enough about the overall woeful state of repair part availability from people I know to make me think that it's another case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

Personally I believe quite strongly that vertical integration is a recipe for collusion against customers.

[MrH]

I've heard enough about the overall woeful state of repair part availability from people I know to make me think that it's another case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

Personally I believe quite strongly that vertical integration is a recipe for collusion against customers.

Agreed. There are tons and tons of terrible dealerships, but there's also a solution to it to some degree. Don't use them! There are probably 20+ Ford dealerships within 50 miles of me. Tesla abuses the shit out of NDAs and arbitration. There's no recourse for Tesla screwing you.

[Laconian]

Agreed. There are tons and tons of terrible dealerships, but there's also a solution to it to some degree. Don't use them! There are probably 20+ Ford dealerships within 50 miles of me. Tesla abuses the shit out of NDAs and arbitration. There's no recourse for Tesla screwing you.

There isn't, which is why Tesla can get away with forcing customers into signing NDAs when they bring their cars in for intensive repairs (e.g. control arms falling off.) Isn't that so incredibly fishy? How do they get away with it?!

[giant_mtb]

Wait, you have to sign an NDA to have Tesla work on your Tesla?

[Laconian]

Wait, you have to sign an NDA to have Tesla work on your Tesla?

It might not be the case anymore, but when a lot of Model Ses were suffering catastrophic suspension failures Tesla would characterize the repair as a "goodwill" repair and not a budgeted warranty repair, which helped pad the financials. Customers had to sign an NDA to qualify for the repair.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-accused-of-ordering-owners-not-to-talk-about-thei-1781634791

I was under the impression that they still demanded NDAs, but heat from NHTSA kiboshed that.

However, more recently (2021?) they were accused of forcing NDAs onto FSD customers.. err, "testers"... which wasn't a popular move with NHTSA, either.

[Morris Minor]

Agreed. Retracted.

Ford are saying orders to dealers canceled mainly due to the '23 -'24 model year change. So dealers will receive 2024 models one-for-one. And apparently there's a new Flash version which has some new twiddly bits

Wait. Not "mainly." I knew I hadn't been dreaming.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2023/10/02/2023-ford-lightning-orders-canceled-quality/71032938007/

[Laconian]

Ford went with NACS and now they have sub-10 micron envy. Wannabe Tesla

[MrH]

Wait. Not "mainly." I knew I hadn't been dreaming.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2023/10/02/2023-ford-lightning-orders-canceled-quality/71032938007/

You said they stopped production because they were losing too much money on them.  That's not true at all?

[AutobahnSHO]

Excluding dealers, and their abuse of customers, is a decent selling point.

100%

[ChrisV]

Love it or hate it, it's an ecosystem that encompasses more than the vehicle itself. Owners seem to love it.
Excluding dealers, and their abuse of customers, is a decent selling point.

Even though Tesla changes it's price every few months due to demand/etc much like traditional dealers, the problem wasn't in dealers changing prices. The price can always change on any product. The huge difference is price transparency. That's what allows proper comparison shopping.

If I want to find out how much a Model 3 costs today, all I have to do is pull up the Tesla website, configure it how I want, and see what it spits out. If I like that price, I hit "buy" and that's my price. Sure, it could go up or down by $5,000 tomorrow, but I'm not getting any other price today.

Under the dealer model, I can go through the manufacturer website to get MSRP, but I then have to search around on a bunch of forums or reddit to get a sense (only a sense) of how much people are ACTUALLY paying. Then, I have to call up a bunch of dealerships and ask for a price, half of which will insist that I show up in person before they will tell me the price. If I show up to those dealers, it may take hours before I know how much the car costs. Even if I find a dealer quote I like on the phone, I then usually have to show up in person to buy the car, at which time they may tell me that the price is only good if I also get the trucoat or if I'm a disabled military veteran recent college grad.

[Morris Minor]

I was so beaten down buying the Mazda that I did not notice the "door protection" on the sticker. Noticed it a couple of days later then realized they'd only put it on the edge of the passenger door. 

Towards the end the sales guy had to take us through installing & configuring the Mazda app on our phones. The app is garbage. We begged him to stop and assured him we'd get it done so the check boxes on his script could all be marked off.

The car has never been back to the dealer since. Once bitten, twice shy. Why be like an enabling battered wife?

[CaminoRacer]

Even though Tesla changes it's price every few months due to demand/etc much like traditional dealers, the problem wasn't in dealers changing prices. The price can always change on any product. The huge difference is price transparency. That's what allows proper comparison shopping.

If I want to find out how much a Model 3 costs today, all I have to do is pull up the Tesla website, configure it how I want, and see what it spits out. If I like that price, I hit "buy" and that's my price. Sure, it could go up or down by $5,000 tomorrow, but I'm not getting any other price today.

Under the dealer model, I can go through the manufacturer website to get MSRP, but I then have to search around on a bunch of forums or reddit to get a sense (only a sense) of how much people are ACTUALLY paying. Then, I have to call up a bunch of dealerships and ask for a price, half of which will insist that I show up in person before they will tell me the price. If I show up to those dealers, it may take hours before I know how much the car costs. Even if I find a dealer quote I like on the phone, I then usually have to show up in person to buy the car, at which time they may tell me that the price is only good if I also get the trucoat or if I'm a disabled military veteran recent college grad.

My new tactic is to threaten to order a Tesla in front of their faces if a salesperson starts to play games.

[AutobahnSHO]

My new tactic is to threaten to order a Tesla in front of their faces if a salesperson starts to play games.

[AutobahnSHO]

I only dealt with shady used car dealerships (we're talking $2k cars 20yrs ago) before Maverick.

The "premier Ford dealer" was no better, and actually more painful.

I take it back- in 2009 I found a 2004 Toyota Sienna online at the "Milton Reuben (Toyota) Used Car Superstore" for a great price ($9k?).

I called them up, went and looked at it, and plunked down $100 check to reserve it. Went back after they finished their maintenance and it was super easy. If all car buying were that painless, it would get a lot more business to the dealers and less to Carvana etc...