Honda Prologue

[Morris Minor]

Well this looks decent. (CCS charging for now.)
Edit: oh okay - I realized it shares its platform with the Lyriq & Blazer EV & will be built at the same factory in Mexico.
 
https://automobiles.honda.com/future-cars/prologue

[AutobahnSHO]

Well this looks decent. (CCS charging for now.)
Edit: oh okay - I realized it shares its platform with the Lyriq & Blazer EV & will be built at the same factory in Mexico.
 
https://automobiles.honda.com/future-cars/prologue

ugh the link to the page looks like they're trying too hard to be hip...

[Laconian]

Well this looks decent. (CCS charging for now.)
Edit: oh okay - I realized it shares its platform with the Lyriq & Blazer EV & will be built at the same factory in Mexico.

Sigh. It's frustrating to witness Toyota and Honda resort to badge engineering instead of actual engineering when it comes to their EV offerings. I wonder what Toyota would be capable of if they weren't blowing their budget futzing around in Gray Hydrogen R&D-land.

The styling and interior look good though.

[GoCougs]

Honda and Toyota know that widespread EV adoption is still very much up in the air, and that WtP buy Tesla, not EVs. This disastrous UAW strike; maybe was even foretold or known; is another reason to go weak on EVs. Who the hell knows where it's going to go at this point.

[Morris Minor]

Sigh. It's frustrating to witness Toyota and Honda resort to badge engineering instead of actual engineering when it comes to their EV offerings. I wonder what Toyota would be capable of if they weren't blowing their budget futzing around in Gray Hydrogen R&D-land.

The styling and interior look good though.

I always buy American (buys Blazer EV.)
Cant beat Japanese engineering 🇯🇵 (buys Prologue)

[r0tor]

Sigh. It's frustrating to witness Toyota and Honda resort to badge engineering instead of actual engineering when it comes to their EV offerings. I wonder what Toyota would be capable of if they weren't blowing their budget futzing around in Gray Hydrogen R&D-land.

The styling and interior look good though.

Toyota has a good shot at being the first with solid state batteries in a couple years which will make everything made today look pathetic while also still keeping a viable ICE program alive in case EVs dont go as predicted... Not seeing a downside to their plan.


keep in mind that other than battery tech progression, there is very little in ways of substantial powertrain improvements in EVs.  You are literally starting out of the box with a powertrain package with 90%+ efficiency and not a lot of things to break.  Interiors are interiors.  Chassis are very basic.  Innovation will be minimal.

[CaminoRacer]

I'm curious if buying the Honda version is better or worse than the Chevy it's based on.

[Morris Minor]

Toyota has a good shot at being the first with solid state batteries in a couple years which will make everything made today look pathetic while also still keeping a viable ICE program alive in case EVs dont go as predicted... Not seeing a downside to their plan.


keep in mind that other than battery tech progression, there is very little in ways of substantial powertrain improvements in EVs.  You are literally starting out of the box with a powertrain package with 90%+ efficiency and not a lot of things to break.  Interiors are interiors.  Chassis are very basic.  Innovation will be minimal.

Toyota slept instead of developing compelling EVs and having them available now. You cannot walk into a Toyota showroom today and buy a BEV that isn't mediocre.

"I can sell you this Camry now but we're gonna have solid state real soon" does not stop EV buyers walking out of the showroom.

They are making perfect the enemy of the good.

[Laconian]

I thought it was pretty well established that the Japanese government promoted hydrogen effort was gobbling all the R&D?

[r0tor]

Toyota slept instead of developing compelling EVs and having them available now. You cannot walk into a Toyota showroom today and buy a BEV that isn't mediocre.

"I can sell you this Camry now but we're gonna have solid state real soon" does not stop EV buyers walking out of the showroom.

They are making perfect the enemy of the good.

So they still make things that appeal to the 70th percentile buyer?  Tragic. 

[r0tor]

I thought it was pretty well established that the Japanese government promoted hydrogen effort was gobbling all the R&D?

Fuel cell still has an EV drivetrain

[Laconian]

Fuel cell still has an EV drivetrain

That's true... however I would assume the drivetrain designs would be tuned to a different set of constraints and compromises.

[Morris Minor]

So they still make things that appeal to the 70th percentile buyer?  Tragic. 

Yes. By being asleep and lazy, they have already ceded 30% of the market (and growing) to competitors.

[r0tor]

Yes. By being asleep and lazy, they have already ceded 30% of the market (and growing) to competitors.

EVs are sitting on lots getting more and more discounts with a pricing war raging.  That is not the sign of a growing market.

So Honda/Toyota enter the BEV marketplace.  What are they going to do to differentiate themselves?  Produce yet another lifted car or lowered SUV thing thanks to a generic skateboard chassis that can fit 250\300 miles of range?  Lets face it, there is really nothing  this point that sets EVs apart except Tesla, which is entirely about their charging system and not even the car.  There is no making engines sportier or more refined.  No tuning of exhausts or transmissions.  No unique engine configurations.  You put your box on a skateboard and call it a day.  Nobody is falling behind in EV development at the moment.

Maybe at least next gen battery tech will allow for different packaging and some sort of creativity.

[CaminoRacer]

EVs are only sitting on lots when they are marked up by dealers or the MSRP is too expensive in the first place compared to competitors. This year is a changing market since production is catching up to demand again, so lots are filling up.

[Morris Minor]

EVs are only sitting on lots when they are marked up by dealers or the MSRP is too expensive in the first place compared to competitors. This year is a changing market since production is catching up to demand again, so lots are filling up.

Abuse at the hands of con-artist dealers, too pricy, not compelling,  and high pucker factors about whether four out of five of a site's charging stations will be fucked when you show up with 7% remaining.

[CaminoRacer]

I wonder if this Honda will have CarPlay? Since apparently the Chevys won't. Could be a big advantage for it

[r0tor]

I wonder if this Honda will have CarPlay? Since apparently the Chevys won't. Could be a big advantage for it

From the StraightPipes YouTube review - it does

[ChrisV]

EVs are sitting on lots getting more and more discounts with a pricing war raging.  That is not the sign of a growing market.

New cars in general are having that issue, as we come out of the major markup issues of the Covid years. There were stupid ADMs on most cars and getting something at MSRP was considered a deal. Now there's cash on the hood of a lot of the cars on the market. The dealer I got my Bolt from was putting a $5k ADM on the cars on the lot and still selling them pretty rapidly (I ordered mine so no ADM). They've now dropped the markup and are still selling them as fast as they get them. There is a 6 day supply of Bolts out there right now and even though it's being discontinued, the demand was high enough to extend the production dates AND now bring it back in '25.

The Lightning production is ramped up, so that now instead of $100k markups, they are selling at MSRP. There is a 97 day supply of them as production increased, but there is a 117 day supply of gas F150s, so it's not an EV thing. https://caredge.com/guides/ford-inventory-surplus-2023

[AutobahnSHO]

Yeah, Mavericks are still mostly custom order but they can be bought at MSRP on lots in a few places..

[Morris Minor]

They've paused production on the F150 Lightnings. The gas versions aren't selling enough to cover the losses they take on the electric versions.

[MrH]

They've paused production on the F150 Lightnings. The gas versions aren't selling enough to cover the losses they take on the electric versions.

That's not true.  Where do you come up with this stuff?

[r0tor]

New cars in general are having that issue, as we come out of the major markup issues of the Covid years. There were stupid ADMs on most cars and getting something at MSRP was considered a deal. Now there's cash on the hood of a lot of the cars on the market. The dealer I got my Bolt from was putting a $5k ADM on the cars on the lot and still selling them pretty rapidly (I ordered mine so no ADM). They've now dropped the markup and are still selling them as fast as they get them. There is a 6 day supply of Bolts out there right now and even though it's being discontinued, the demand was high enough to extend the production dates AND now bring it back in '25.

The Lightning production is ramped up, so that now instead of $100k markups, they are selling at MSRP. There is a 97 day supply of them as production increased, but there is a 117 day supply of gas F150s, so it's not an EV thing. https://caredge.com/guides/ford-inventory-surplus-2023

I think you forgot the little fact Ford had to cut the MSRP by $10k to get sales to pick up... again pointing towards the fact it's not longer a hot early adopter type market

[Morris Minor]

That's not true.  Where do you come up with this stuff?

Agreed. Retracted.

Ford are saying orders to dealers canceled mainly due to the '23 -'24 model year change. So dealers will receive 2024 models one-for-one. And apparently there's a new Flash version which has some new twiddly bits

[ChrisV]

I think you forgot the little fact Ford had to cut the MSRP by $10k to get sales to pick up... again pointing towards the fact it's not longer a hot early adopter type market

Sales were off because dealers were adding HUGE markups (up to $100k on them). They increased production to stop that crap.



Of COURSE sales will be slow when dealers do that...

[r0tor]

Sales were off because dealers were adding HUGE markups (up to $100k on them). They increased production to stop that crap.



Of COURSE sales will be slow when dealers do that...

They lowered the MSRP by $10k to increase sales.  The reality is they are about to double or triple manufacturing capability on a product line that already had 3 months of inventory.  Sales need to triple or they will be massively underwater.

I don't really care what a couple asshole dealers tried to get away with... pretty much all brands have examples of that idiocracy

[veeman]

I think many EVs outside of Teslas are sitting on lots because many of them are being compared with the Tesla Model Y  and Tesla has the huge advantages of:

1. No intermediary dealership model. The price listed on the website is the price you pay. Can buy one on your smart phone with a couple of clicks.

2. Potential $7500 federal tax credit. The Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq5 for example do not. The Ford Mustang Mach-E get's half of it ($3750).

3. Only brand with a competent public fast charging interface. Only brand that can be driven on long distance trips on most routes within the continental U.S. It's still a pain in the ass but at least it's doable.

4. Most advanced whiz bang electronics. Everything from over-the-air software updates to sentry mode.

5. Other cool stuff. My brother in law for example bought Tesla auto insurance using the Tesla APP on his phone.

Even if the competitors'vehicles are better vehicles from a build quality view point, they're going to be a hard sale. I'm glad I chose the Kia EV6 over the Model Y but I'm in the minority. 

[MrH]

Sales were off because dealers were adding HUGE markups (up to $100k on them). They increased production to stop that crap.


Of COURSE sales will be slow when dealers do that...

There's a serious demand issue for EVs.  Are you not willing to concede that?

It's only going to get worse too.  Ford was supposed to be at 150k/yr capacity for making Lightnings.  They're going to have to continue cutting price to have any chance of selling that many.

[CaminoRacer]

There's a serious demand issue for EVs.  Are you not willing to concede that?

It's only going to get worse too.  Ford was supposed to be at 150k/yr capacity for making Lightnings.  They're going to have to continue cutting price to have any chance of selling that many.

The demand issues are typically when the automaker promises a $40k vehicle and then only releases the $70k model.

And then when Tesla cuts their prices, everyone else has to follow or give up the sale to Tesla.

[Morris Minor]

I think many EVs outside of Teslas are sitting on lots because many of them are being compared with the Tesla Model Y  and Tesla has the huge advantages of:

1. No intermediary dealership model. The price listed on the website is the price you pay. Can buy one on your smart phone with a couple of clicks.

2. Potential $7500 federal tax credit. The Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq5 for example do not. The Ford Mustang Mach-E get's half of it ($3750).

3. Only brand with a competent public fast charging interface. Only brand that can be driven on long distance trips on most routes within the continental U.S. It's still a pain in the ass but at least it's doable.

4. Most advanced whiz bang electronics. Everything from over-the-air software updates to sentry mode.

5. Other cool stuff. My brother in law for example bought Tesla auto insurance using the Tesla APP on his phone.

Even if the competitors'vehicles are better vehicles from a build quality view point, they're going to be a hard sale. I'm glad I chose the Kia EV6 over the Model Y but I'm in the minority. 

Love it or hate it, it's an ecosystem that encompasses more than the vehicle itself. Owners seem to love it.
Excluding dealers, and their abuse of customers, is a decent selling point.