Who Will Be the Next To Get a Ticket?

[TurboDan]

Wasn't you last ticket on the NJ Turnpike, or am I remembering that incorrectly?

Yes, it was.  But it was on the southern portion of the Turnpike, where there are plenty of grassy areas to hide in.  I was talking about the part of the Turnpike closer to NYC, where they gotta get right behind you and pace you for a little while.

[TurboDan]

And just for the record, I don't get the paranoia over the police either, Raza.  I know alot of non-white people that don't really seem to have a problem.

What I absolutely DO know is that NOTHING pisses off most cops more than someone saying that their stop was racially motivated when it was not.  If someone mouths off like that, they're not treated as nicely.  When you've been stopped, did you ever say anything sarcastic or to that effect?

[Raza]

I meant specifically cops.  They all have guns.

Not in England.

I wasn't driving in England.

Raza, is there something you're not telling us?

Seriously.  I can't believe you were that heavily traumatized by getting stopped for speeding once.  It's not as if cops came barging into your house with guns drawn and almost killed you.

I really don't get it.  A lot of people I know, both here and in person, have been pulled over multiple times, and while they may not be thrilled to see a cop in their rear-view mirror, I've never quite met anybody who has the same terror of LEOs that you seem to have.

And to top it all off, you got a slap on the wrist for doing double the speed limit.  You should be counting your blessings, dude, instead of being on this anti-cop kick.  I really don't understand it.

I realize you're dark-skinned, but so are a lot of other people, and I haven't met one who goes to the extreme that you have gone to.

What am I missing here?

You haven't known me very long.  My disdain for cops goes far beyond my speeding ticket, possibly even further back than when I was thrown on the hood of a police car and searched for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  

Look, you just have to look around on these forums even, and see why I'm distrustful.  The opinion that people have towards dark skinned minorities isn't exactly high, nor enlightened.  Add to that a sense of higher self importance, an invincibility factor, and a gun, you give people free passes to do whatever they want.  

The country that we live in now is not in any way friendly towards people that look like me.  I never had a high opinion of the police anyway, and now you're talking about a general level of raised fear which affects cops especially, since they're on the frontline.  

I'm trying not to get shot by some asshole, badged or not.

[Raza]

And just for the record, I don't get the paranoia over the police either, Raza.  I know alot of non-white people that don't really seem to have a problem.

What I absolutely DO know is that NOTHING pisses off most cops more than someone saying that their stop was racially motivated when it was not.  If someone mouths off like that, they're not treated as nicely.  When you've been stopped, did you ever say anything sarcastic or to that effect?

Never even dreamed of it--I may have thought it (as you always do) but I'd never say anything like that.  They have fucking guns, I don't think you guys get that.  Cops can do whatever they want and get away with it.

[Tom]

The chance a cop will abuse you is very slim.  

Care to elaborate on being slammed into the hood of a car?

[Raza]

The chance a cop will abuse you is very slim. 

Care to elaborate on being slammed into the hood of a car?

Wrong place.  Wrong time.  Hood of cop car.  Searched my person.  Searched my belongings.  No cuffs, though.  

This is deep routed guys, it goes even beyond a run in with a few provincial constables.  You'd have to be one hell of a shrink to figure out exactly what it is, and one hell of a hypnotist to get me to change my mind.

It's not like I don't know that there can be policemen that can be good guys--hell, look at Greg--he's actually a cop and a good person.  Until about a year after we first conversed, I didn't believe that could happen.

And it's not just cops, either.  I don't like "authority" figures in general.

[dazzleman]

You haven't known me very long.  My disdain for cops goes far beyond my speeding ticket, possibly even further back than when I was thrown on the hood of a police car and searched for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  

Look, you just have to look around on these forums even, and see why I'm distrustful.  The opinion that people have towards dark skinned minorities isn't exactly high, nor enlightened.  Add to that a sense of higher self importance, an invincibility factor, and a gun, you give people free passes to do whatever they want.  

The country that we live in now is not in any way friendly towards people that look like me.  I never had a high opinion of the police anyway, and now you're talking about a general level of raised fear which affects cops especially, since they're on the frontline.  

I'm trying not to get shot by some asshole, badged or not.

No, I haven't known you very long, Raza.

All I can say is this -- you can exhibit some control over how much you allow what other people may or may not think to limit your possibilities in life.

I think you don't really recognize how fortunate you are in a lot of ways, and you seem to spend a lot of energy on anger, rather than on positive things.  You would be wiser to count your blessings a little more often, because you've said enough that I know that you are very fortunate in a lot of ways.

Of course, it is wise not to put yourself in dangerous situations.  But you should probably try to figure out why you have such a deep-seated dislike of any type of authority figure.

One day, you will be an authority figure to somebody, maybe even a number of people.  What will you think then?  You can't presuppose that you will always be on the bottom of the totem pole, though it could become a self-fulfilling prophesy if you don't get over the irrational part of your disdain for authority figures (I say irrational part because part of it is surely rational; it's a matter of degree).

[Raza]

See, I'm the type of fellow that wants things to be proven to me.  If I see an authority figure who seems unqualified, I'm less likely to take them seriously (and honestly, no offense to Cat, I just don't trust cops, I never have, and I never will).  If and when I am put in a position of authority, I like to believe that I'd be able to prove my qualifications to those under me.

[dazzleman]

See, I'm the type of fellow that wants things to be proven to me.  If I see an authority figure who seems unqualified, I'm less likely to take them seriously (and honestly, no offense to Cat, I just don't trust cops, I never have, and I never will).  If and when I am put in a position of authority, I like to believe that I'd be able to prove my qualifications to those under me.

Dude, your attitude is going to kill you.

There's nothing wrong with not having blind acceptance to authority.

But you go beyond that.  If you can make a statement that you will never trust 'cops' regardless of the situation, the personal qualities of the individual officer you are dealing with, etc., then I'd have to say that you have a deeper issue.

You've basically said that you would never be able to show respect to a cop, regardless of how he acted toward you.

If and when you reach a position of authority in some realm of your life, you can expect somebody to take this attitude toward you, and then you'll see how it feels from the other end.

In all honesty, you sound as if you're pretty spoiled, and that your parents let you get away with too much, and tried to be too 'logical' with you.  Either that, or they scarred you by going to the other extreme.

[Raza]

Do not try to psychoanalyze me.  

If you think I've gotten away with too much...

[dazzleman]

Do not try to psychoanalyze me.  

If you think I've gotten away with too much...

Whatever Raza.  Your attitude just seems over the top, but it's no skin off my back.  Peace, brother.    

[Raza]

Do not try to psychoanalyze me. 

If you think I've gotten away with too much...

Whatever Raza.  Your attitude just seems over the top, but it's no skin off my back.  Peace, brother.  

It may be over the top, I admit to that.  However, you'd never be able to understand it unless you'd lived the life I had, would you?  

I mean, white people run around talking about how minorities shouldn't make everything a race issue, but what you don't get is that almost everything is a race issue.  And when it's not, you still have to wonder.  

[TurboDan]

but what you don't get is that almost everything is a race issue

If you really believe that, you're going to miserable.  

[dazzleman]

Do not try to psychoanalyze me.?

If you think I've gotten away with too much...

Whatever Raza.  Your attitude just seems over the top, but it's no skin off my back.  Peace, brother.  

It may be over the top, I admit to that.  However, you'd never be able to understand it unless you'd lived the life I had, would you?  

I mean, white people run around talking about how minorities shouldn't make everything a race issue, but what you don't get is that almost everything is a race issue.  And when it's not, you still have to wonder.

Raza, you can't control what people think, but you can, to a large extent, control how it affects you.

You seem determined to make any type of prejudice have the maximum effect possible on you.  That's your choice, but it's going to make you miserable.  Clearly, it already is.  And your behavior and attitude simply confirm people in whatever negative thoughts they might have had, or create those negative thoughts if they weren't there.

In addition, you're exhibiting not a small amount of prejudice of your own.  And you're using that "you could never understand my experiences" tactic that is simply intended to keep people from putting up any type of challenge to your version of the situation.  I am well acquainted with that tactic, and believe me, it will get you nowhere.

Yet here you are, apparently well off economically, going to college for a degree that will probably lead you to earn a good living.  Is your life here really that bad?  If it is, then why not look for other options.

[IrishGuy]

Do not try to psychoanalyze me. 

If you think I've gotten away with too much...

Whatever Raza.  Your attitude just seems over the top, but it's no skin off my back.  Peace, brother.  

It may be over the top, I admit to that.  However, you'd never be able to understand it unless you'd lived the life I had, would you?  

I mean, white people run around talking about how minorities shouldn't make everything a race issue, but what you don't get is that almost everything is a race issue.  And when it's not, you still have to wonder.

Perhaps it sometimes someone else making it a race issue --- hint: you.

[Raza]

but what you don't get is that almost everything is a race issue

If you really believe that, you're going to miserable.

Wow, a white person telling me what is and what isn't a race issue!  I've never had that happen before!

You wouldn't be a Republican, would you?

The point is that you have to wonder, and you have no idea how that feels.  

[Raza]

Do not try to psychoanalyze me. 

If you think I've gotten away with too much...

Whatever Raza.  Your attitude just seems over the top, but it's no skin off my back.  Peace, brother.  

It may be over the top, I admit to that.  However, you'd never be able to understand it unless you'd lived the life I had, would you?  

I mean, white people run around talking about how minorities shouldn't make everything a race issue, but what you don't get is that almost everything is a race issue.  And when it's not, you still have to wonder.

Perhaps it sometimes someone else making it a race issue --- hint: you.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head.  Racism only exists in the minds of minorities.

 

[dazzleman]

Raza, you don't make it possible to have any type of dialogue with you on this issue.  I am not a 'denier' yet you take such a position that there'd be no point in having a more nuanced discussion with you.  This is a nuanced issue, and responding that a white person couldn't possibly have anything to say about it is just a way to shut the conversation down.  But if that was what you wanted to do, why did you ever open the discussion in the first place?

[Raza]

Raza, you don't make it possible to have any type of dialogue with you on this issue.  I am not a 'denier' yet you take such a position that there'd be no point in having a more nuanced discussion with you.  This is a nuanced issue, and responding that a white person couldn't possibly have anything to say about it is just a way to shut the conversation down.  But if that was what you wanted to do, why did you ever open the discussion in the first place?

No, that's not the issue.  See, here's the issue.  Daniel and Matthew believe that they know what it's like, but that's not even possible.  So anything they say to me sounds incredibly condescending, as if it were a simple issue that they could possibly understand.  

[dazzleman]

Raza, you don't make it possible to have any type of dialogue with you on this issue.? I am not a 'denier' yet you take such a position that there'd be no point in having a more nuanced discussion with you.? This is a nuanced issue, and responding that a white person couldn't possibly have anything to say about it is just a way to shut the conversation down.? But if that was what you wanted to do, why did you ever open the discussion in the first place?

No, that's not the issue.  See, here's the issue.  Daniel and Matthew believe that they know what it's like, but that's not even possible.  So anything they say to me sounds incredibly condescending, as if it were a simple issue that they could possibly understand.

I don't know this to be the case, but do you think that maybe they experienced this issue in another realm, to one degree or another, and have some idea how you feel?

For example, a poor kid in a rich kid's school might feel excluded, looked down upon, etc.  Race is not the only dividing line, the only basis on which to divide people into us and them.  Even if you take race out of the equation, there is not the solidarity among whites that you seem to think there is.  Most people, whatever their color, have experienced some degree of exclusion and ostracism at some point in their lives.

OTOH, there are also the times that white people feel the sting of racial animus.  I have felt this myself.

Nobody who has not been in your situation will be able to fully understand what you experience, but that doesn't mean that they're completely unable to have any understanding.  This is not an either-or issue, but a matter of degree.

[IrishGuy]

Raza, you don't make it possible to have any type of dialogue with you on this issue.  I am not a 'denier' yet you take such a position that there'd be no point in having a more nuanced discussion with you.  This is a nuanced issue, and responding that a white person couldn't possibly have anything to say about it is just a way to shut the conversation down.  But if that was what you wanted to do, why did you ever open the discussion in the first place?

No, that's not the issue.  See, here's the issue.  Daniel and Matthew believe that they know what it's like, but that's not even possible.  So anything they say to me sounds incredibly condescending, as if it were a simple issue that they could possibly understand.

Wow, you must lead such a horrible life...

you're right - what are us "white people" thinking about having any sort of thoughts on this issue. Because I'm not "black" I have no right even making a comment on racism.

I love how you have trouble with stereotypes yet you are quick to make them left and right - that's an excellent way to make your point.

[TBR]

I would also like to point out that racism is most definitely not a one way street. Many African Americans definitely look down on whites, though I haven't been around enough Middle Easterners to know how they act towards people of other races.

[Run Away]

I've got two adopted black sisters, can't say I've ever been in a position where I've seen racism directed towards them.

[IrishGuy]

Raza, you don't make it possible to have any type of dialogue with you on this issue.  I am not a 'denier' yet you take such a position that there'd be no point in having a more nuanced discussion with you.  This is a nuanced issue, and responding that a white person couldn't possibly have anything to say about it is just a way to shut the conversation down.  But if that was what you wanted to do, why did you ever open the discussion in the first place?

No, that's not the issue.  See, here's the issue.  Daniel and Matthew believe that they know what it's like, but that's not even possible.  So anything they say to me sounds incredibly condescending, as if it were a simple issue that they could possibly understand.

I don't know this to be the case, but do you think that maybe they experienced this issue in another realm, to one degree or another, and have some idea how you feel?

For example, a poor kid in a rich kid's school might feel excluded, looked down upon, etc.  Race is not the only dividing line, the only basis on which to divide people into us and them.  Even if you take race out of the equation, there is not the solidarity among whites that you seem to think there is.  Most people, whatever their color, have experienced some degree of exclusion and ostracism at some point in their lives.

OTOH, there are also the times that white people feel the sting of racial animus.  I have felt this myself.

Nobody who has not been in your situation will be able to fully understand what you experience, but that doesn't mean that they're completely unable to have any understanding.  This is not an either-or issue, but a matter of degree.

Nah, couldn't be the case. It's not like I went to a private school where kids' parents drove MBs, BMWs, and even Lambos while my dad would pick me up from track practice in his Dodge Omni that would always break down in front of the school. And at the same time my parents were trying to figure out how they could still afford to send me there. Needless to say I ended up not going there for my Junior or Senior years.

Raza, I think you seriously need to focus your energy else where instead of trying to see every possible way you have been discriminated against or might be in the future.  

[Raza]

Raza, you don't make it possible to have any type of dialogue with you on this issue.  I am not a 'denier' yet you take such a position that there'd be no point in having a more nuanced discussion with you.  This is a nuanced issue, and responding that a white person couldn't possibly have anything to say about it is just a way to shut the conversation down.  But if that was what you wanted to do, why did you ever open the discussion in the first place?

No, that's not the issue.  See, here's the issue.  Daniel and Matthew believe that they know what it's like, but that's not even possible.  So anything they say to me sounds incredibly condescending, as if it were a simple issue that they could possibly understand.

Wow, you must lead such a horrible life...

you're right - what are us "white people" thinking about having any sort of thoughts on this issue. Because I'm not "black" I have no right even making a comment on racism.

I love how you have trouble with stereotypes yet you are quick to make them left and right - that's an excellent way to make your point.

There's a funny thing about when you say I decry stereotypes.  I haven't.  Stereotypes exist, I'm subject to them, and I do apply them to others.

I never have, and never will deny that.  

[Raza]

I would also like to point out that racism is most definitely not a one way street. Many African Americans definitely look down on whites, though I haven't been around enough Middle Easterners to know how they act towards people of other races.

You're right, racism isn't a one way street, but whtie racism is more significant, if you ask me, because whites are the ones in power.  White people are the cops, politicians, lawyers, judges, and the ones with the most money.  They are in the position to do the most damage.

[Raza]

I've got two adopted black sisters, can't say I've ever been in a position where I've seen racism directed towards them.

Could be a cultural thing--I honestly don't know anything about what it's like to live in Canada, and when I was in Canada, my only impression was "Canadians are really nice".  

But I can tell you that the vandalism we've dealt with wasn't just random.  Neither were the slurs.  I mean, you don't just randomly call someone a towelhead and tell them to go home.

[Raza]

Daz--I never said race was the only dividing line.

[dazzleman]

I would also like to point out that racism is most definitely not a one way street. Many African Americans definitely look down on whites, though I haven't been around enough Middle Easterners to know how they act towards people of other races.

You're right, racism isn't a one way street, but whtie racism is more significant, if you ask me, because whites are the ones in power.  White people are the cops, politicians, lawyers, judges, and the ones with the most money.  They are in the position to do the most damage.

You've got the lines down perfectly, Raza.  
I guess there are no non-white elected officials, cops, judges, etc.    

[Raza]

Raza, you don't make it possible to have any type of dialogue with you on this issue.  I am not a 'denier' yet you take such a position that there'd be no point in having a more nuanced discussion with you.  This is a nuanced issue, and responding that a white person couldn't possibly have anything to say about it is just a way to shut the conversation down.  But if that was what you wanted to do, why did you ever open the discussion in the first place?

No, that's not the issue.  See, here's the issue.  Daniel and Matthew believe that they know what it's like, but that's not even possible.  So anything they say to me sounds incredibly condescending, as if it were a simple issue that they could possibly understand.

I don't know this to be the case, but do you think that maybe they experienced this issue in another realm, to one degree or another, and have some idea how you feel?

For example, a poor kid in a rich kid's school might feel excluded, looked down upon, etc.  Race is not the only dividing line, the only basis on which to divide people into us and them.  Even if you take race out of the equation, there is not the solidarity among whites that you seem to think there is.  Most people, whatever their color, have experienced some degree of exclusion and ostracism at some point in their lives.

OTOH, there are also the times that white people feel the sting of racial animus.  I have felt this myself.

Nobody who has not been in your situation will be able to fully understand what you experience, but that doesn't mean that they're completely unable to have any understanding.  This is not an either-or issue, but a matter of degree.

Nah, couldn't be the case. It's not like I went to a private school where kids' parents drove MBs, BMWs, and even Lambos while my dad would pick me up from track practice in his Dodge Omni that would always break down in front of the school. And at the same time my parents were trying to figure out how they could still afford to send me there. Needless to say I ended up not going there for my Junior or Senior years.

Raza, I think you seriously need to focus your energy else where instead of trying to see every possible way you have been discriminated against or might be in the future.

That sounds awful.  I'm sorry you went through that.  Teenagers can be so cruel for no reason.

But lay off the life advice, eh?  I'm not "focusing my energy" on anything, it's just every time something happens the thought flashes in your head "was this person's actions towards me because of my race?"  I'm not saying it always is, even though so many people do make superficial judgments about people (I know I do), that as a minority, the uncertainty can be crippling.  Especially now, where I'm in the situation that I live basically in rural Pennsylvania, the Hate Capital of America, I worry about "rednecks" dragging me behind their pickup trucks until I die.  Not all the time, mind you, but I do get worried if I'm out of town and there are bunch of fellows who fit the Blue Collar Comedy Tour description hanging around--I try not to put myself in that position.