Lexus IS500

[cawimmer430]

The least they could've done is to put a 6 speed manual in there.... BLAH.

Lexus knows their customers. Just because 100 guys on the C&D forums demand a manual, Lexus won't offer one because in the US, there will be 1,000,000 buyers who want an automatic.

I don't think we should complain since I've never bought this "Lexus IS is a 3-Series rival" hype. I've never driven one, but I've read enough to form an opinion about the IS. To me, it seems like it's still biased towards cruising and luxury while blending in some sport in it. The IS seems more similar to the C-Class in philosophy. Just because it has a big V8 doesn't make it a sports sedan. And IMO, Lexus should cut the hype about the IS being a 3-Series rival when it seems to be more of a C-Class rival.

Mercedes offers a 6-speed on the C350, yet I've not seen many. Then, once you try to sell it... GOOD LUCK. The lack of an A/T is turn-off to the buyers of these cars. When I worked for the dealer, there was a used R170 SLK320 6-speed on the lot. There were many folks interested in it. It was well stocked, had low mileage and an appealing price. Yet, after checking it out, people lost interest. I asked the salesman in charge why and he confessed, "it's the 6-speed".

Bottom line is that the people who buy these cars are not driving enthusiasts but want a luxury car. With luxury comes an automatic transmission. In fact, with luxury cars, the bigger and more powerful the engine, the greater the expectation that it is offered with an automatic. At least, this is the philosophy of Mercedes and Lexus, Audi and maybe even Infiniti and Acura.

So why does BMW have manuals on every single variant of the 3,Z,5, and 6 seiries?

BMW's philosophy is SPORT. They want to make cars for people who like 'to drive' and enjoy driving stickshift. If you like stick, will only drive stick when it comes to luxury cars, then BMW is your car - even if you don't like the designs.

MB and Lexus don't offer manuals in their higher-end cars because the vast majority of buyers don't want them. A manual is frowned upon in higher end E-Classes. Sure, your average car forum guy will want one, but they're not the target market of the E-Class or GS etc. These cars are made for long-distance travelling, comfort is top priority. Let's be honest here for awhile. An M/T on long-distances is a BITCH. During my England roadtrip, driving through France, Belgium and Germany, I was so happy the E320 was automatic. It's simply more comfortable for these types of journeys, or city traffic. Anyway, MB and Lexus focus on comfort, hence the automatic.

[cawimmer430]

Lexus knows their customers. Just because 100 guys on the C&D forums demand a manual, Lexus won't offer one because in the US, there will be 1,000,000 buyers who want an automatic.

...snip...

Mercedes offers a 6-speed on the C350, yet I've not seen many. Then, once you try to sell it... GOOD LUCK. The lack of an A/T is turn-off to the buyers of these cars. When I worked for the dealer, there was a used R170 SLK320 6-speed on the lot. There were many folks interested in it. It was well stocked, had low mileage and an appealing price. Yet, after checking it out, people lost interest. I asked the salesman in charge why and he confessed, "it's the 6-speed".

Bottom line is that the people who buy these cars are not driving enthusiasts but want a luxury car. With luxury comes an automatic transmission. In fact, with luxury cars, the bigger and more powerful the engine, the greater the expectation that it is offered with an automatic. At least, this is the philosophy of Mercedes and Lexus, Audi and maybe even Infiniti and Acura.

You're probably right, especially about selling the car afterwards. But I think you're also too easily dismissing the number of people who are interested in manuals. It's certainly not just 100 C&D forum members who want to drive cars rather than point them. And it's not just a handful of magazine reviewers either. In the end, it just means that people like me will never buy a Mercedes. Or a Lexus. No big deal.

There are more people out there who want a manual in an E-Class or a GS for example, I was just making an example using the C&D forums. I could even have said 'Carspin'.  :P

Let's say someone wants a manual E-Class, you have to be in Europe. Here, the lower end E-Classes come with a 6-speed. That's the E200 CDI, E220 CDI, E280 CDI, E200 Kompressor and the E280. Starting with the E320 CDI and E350, it's A/T only. Lexus doesn't offer a manual GS in Europe. Anyway, you can get away with a manual E200 CDI, but with the others, which are more premium, it's harder to sell a manual.

I think people are totally missing the point about these cars. Most people here are driving enthusiasts, and hence think BMW is the second coming of Christ and every other carmaker has to be like them. They're not. BMW is "class leading" when it comes to driving dynamics and sport hands down, but comfort is not one of BMW's main strenghts (maybe in the 7-series, but not the 3 or 5), and it is probably not on their list of priorities since their cars are made for someone who likes a sporty and good-handling car. This usually comes at a compromise. Stiff suspension means good handling, but annoying comfort. In fact, a few days ago, my father and my mother both got a ride in their friends current 530i. Both commented that the suspension comfort was not up to the standard of our E320 for example. Get the picture?  

This isn't a rant against BMW, but merely my explanation. I hope the BMW guys will back me up on this. Anyway, in the USA, if you want an M/T luxury car, you really have no choice but BMW. It's no big deal to me. Even here in Europe, where you can get a manual on an E280 E-Class for example, I'd never get it because it simply doesn't suit the car. If I was buying an economy car, I wouldn't consider an automatic.

[MrEddy]

An M/T on long-distances is a BITCH. During my England roadtrip, driving through France, Belgium and Germany, I was so happy the E320 was automatic. It's simply more comfortable for these types of journeys, or city traffic. Anyway, MB and Lexus focus on comfort, hence the automatic.

:blink: Huh? Long distances is exactly where manuals shouldn't make much difference. Since you're on the freeway most of the time you end up in top gear for large proportions of the drive. A better case for automatics is stop and start city traffic.

[cawimmer430]

An M/T on long-distances is a BITCH. During my England roadtrip, driving through France, Belgium and Germany, I was so happy the E320 was automatic. It's simply more comfortable for these types of journeys, or city traffic. Anyway, MB and Lexus focus on comfort, hence the automatic.

:blink: Huh? Long distances is exactly where manuals shouldn't make much difference. Since you're on the freeway most of the time you end up in top gear for large proportions of the drive. A better case for automatics is stop and start city traffic.

It obviously depends on the roads. On highways, you can drive an M/T for long distances without much shifting, unless there's a lot of traffic etc.

But the roads we took were different. Both my parents are "countryside fanatics" and wouldn't take the highways. So the roads we took were English country roads which are overwhelmingly curvy - and we're talking extremly tight curves which force you to reduce your speed to an almost crawl-like inertia. A manual wouldn't be a problem here but we would be driving for 3-5 hours straight without a stop and it is simply far more enjoyable to have computer select the right gear for you in this type of situation. It was pretty much the same deal in France and Belgium. In Germany, we used the Autobahns to get home quicker.

[MrEddy]

I think people are totally missing the point about these cars. Most people here are driving enthusiasts, and hence think BMW is the second coming of Christ and every other carmaker has to be like them. They're not. BMW is "class leading" when it comes to driving dynamics and sport hands down, but comfort is not one of BMW's main strenghts (maybe in the 7-series, but not the 3 or 5), and it is probably not on their list of priorities since their cars are made for someone who likes a sporty and good-handling car. This usually comes at a compromise. Stiff suspension means good handling, but annoying comfort. In fact, a few days ago, my father and my mother both got a ride in their friends current 530i. Both commented that the suspension comfort was not up to the standard of our E320 for example. Get the picture?  

This isn't a rant against BMW, but merely my explanation. I hope the BMW guys will back me up on this. Anyway, in the USA, if you want an M/T luxury car, you really have no choice but BMW. It's no big deal to me. Even here in Europe, where you can get a manual on an E280 E-Class for example, I'd never get it because it simply doesn't suit the car. If I was buying an economy car, I wouldn't consider an automatic.

First of all, your inventing yourself a lovely stawman there.

Find me someone who things that BMW is the second coming and that other carmakers need to be like them.

In fact, the discussion as I recall is about transmission choices offered by Lexus, not about what a great carmaker BMW is. And you seem to be drawing the conclusion that carmakers need to decide between sport (and offer manuals) and luxury (and offer automatics), and can't have sporty automatics or luxury manuals. I don't agree with that.

What's at issue here is choice and preference. If I was looking for a luxury car, I would STILL want a manual. It has nothing to do with wanting Lexus to produce a BMW, and everything to do with wanting Lexus to produce a Lexus.... with a manual transmission. You are different, you (and lots of others) equate luxury with automatics, and prefer them. And I'm aware that the market is on your side, that's fine.

Just stop telling me that when I say I want to change my own gears it means I want a rock-hard sports car and don't understand luxury or the difference between luxury cars and sports cars.

[cawimmer430]

I think people are totally missing the point about these cars. Most people here are driving enthusiasts, and hence think BMW is the second coming of Christ and every other carmaker has to be like them. They're not. BMW is "class leading" when it comes to driving dynamics and sport hands down, but comfort is not one of BMW's main strenghts (maybe in the 7-series, but not the 3 or 5), and it is probably not on their list of priorities since their cars are made for someone who likes a sporty and good-handling car. This usually comes at a compromise. Stiff suspension means good handling, but annoying comfort. In fact, a few days ago, my father and my mother both got a ride in their friends current 530i. Both commented that the suspension comfort was not up to the standard of our E320 for example. Get the picture? 

This isn't a rant against BMW, but merely my explanation. I hope the BMW guys will back me up on this. Anyway, in the USA, if you want an M/T luxury car, you really have no choice but BMW. It's no big deal to me. Even here in Europe, where you can get a manual on an E280 E-Class for example, I'd never get it because it simply doesn't suit the car. If I was buying an economy car, I wouldn't consider an automatic.

First of all, your inventing yourself a lovely stawman there.

Find me someone who things that BMW is the second coming and that other carmakers need to be like them.

In fact, the discussion as I recall is about transmission choices offered by Lexus, not about what a great carmaker BMW is. And you seem to be drawing the conclusion that carmakers need to decide between sport (and offer manuals) and luxury (and offer automatics), and can't have sporty automatics or luxury manuals. I don't agree with that.

What's at issue here is choice and preference. If I was looking for a luxury car, I would STILL want a manual. It has nothing to do with wanting Lexus to produce a BMW, and everything to do with wanting Lexus to produce a Lexus.... with a manual transmission. You are different, you (and lots of others) equate luxury with automatics, and prefer them. And I'm aware that the market is on your side, that's fine.

Just stop telling me that when I say I want to change my own gears it means I want a rock-hard sports car and don't understand luxury or the difference between luxury cars and sports cars.

Gees, I was kidding when I said "some folks think BMW is the second coming of Christ". My point was that some people think a manual should be in every single car offered, even if it has 737 lb/ft of uncontrollable torque - they still want a
manual in it for example. Yes we're off-topic here.

That's fine if you want a manual in a luxury car, but you really have no choice but to go to BMW, generally. Heck, BMW doesn't even sell manuals in all their markets. In the Philippines or South Korea for example, a manual BMW is unheard off. People say BMW isn't luxury, well to me it IS luxury combined with a heavy bias towards sport. A BMW is a luxury car with a different philosophy from its competitors.

Anyway, I don't think I am concluding anything about what carmakers should offer. BMW's continued philosophy was sport, hence they can afford to offer manuals because that's what people want and expect, it's their brand image. Lexus or MB on the other hand don't have a reputation for making driver's cars, especially over in the US. The overwhelming majority of Americans prefer automatics. Why should Lexus or MB offer a manual in some of their more powerful models when 99/100 buyers want the automatic? This is also a money issue. I'm sure MB could offer a 6-speed on the E350, but they don't because their market research shows them what people prefer. They have manuals in their lower end models because it has always been like that in Europe, and they need to stay competitive against the offerings from Audi or BMW. Once you move up the ladder of engine size and performance, expectations change.

[MrEddy]

Why should Lexus or MB offer a manual in some of their more powerful models when 99/100 buyers want the automatic?

Because, as that one person, I want one goddamit.    That should be enough for them. In fact, they should dedicate an entire production line's output to producing only manuals just for me. So there.

[TBR]

A manual wouldn't be a problem here but we would be driving for 3-5 hours straight without a stop and it is simply far more enjoyable to have computer select the right gear for you in this type of situation.

3-5 hours with roads like that and a car with a good M/T sounds very close to heaven on earth to me. In fact, add in free gas and no cops and that is heaven on earth imho!  

[SJ_GTI]

I know you keep saying only BMW offers manuals on higher end cars, but I would like to note that the A4 i offered with a manual on its I4, V6, and V8. Actually the highest "A4" model is only offered with a manual (RS4).

[850CSi]

Find me someone who things that BMW is the second coming and that other carmakers need to be like them.

*Raises Hand*



 

[850CSi]

I know you keep saying only BMW offers manuals on higher end cars, but I would like to note that the A4 i offered with a manual on its I4, V6, and V8. Actually the highest "A4" model is only offered with a manual (RS4).

No more A6 manuals.    

[850CSi]

I think people are totally missing the point about these cars. Most people here are driving enthusiasts, and hence think BMW is the second coming of Christ and every other carmaker has to be like them. They're not. BMW is "class leading" when it comes to driving dynamics and sport hands down, but comfort is not one of BMW's main strenghts (maybe in the 7-series, but not the 3 or 5), and it is probably not on their list of priorities since their cars are made for someone who likes a sporty and good-handling car. This usually comes at a compromise. Stiff suspension means good handling, but annoying comfort. In fact, a few days ago, my father and my mother both got a ride in their friends current 530i. Both commented that the suspension comfort was not up to the standard of our E320 for example. Get the picture?  

Hoooold on.  


You're making it seem like every BMW has an absurdly hard suspension and bone-jarring ride.

Uh-uh.


The reason people love BMWs isn't just because of the dynamics. It's because of the balance that they have between dynamics and ride (and this why I always feel that Mercedes is underappreciated by people who like to drive). I've never driven a car besides the M3 that handled as well as my car. But I can also safely say that the comfort level in my car is probably very close to that of a C-Class.

The reason car magazines marveled for so long at the E39 was because its suspension was an engineering marvel. They couldn't understand how it was so smooth but so capable.



I've driven an E320 and an S500 before. Even though both are dynamically excellent, the relatively soft suspension and lack of directness in the steering gave me an impulse that I personally don't like. Other people don't appreciate the directness of BMWs. It's all a matter of taste.


Now, I will probably never buy a Mercedes for myself because I simply can't stand A/Ts. Nor will I ever buy an Auto BMW. It's just the way I'm wired. And, personally, I can understand why people like the way MBs drive and ride. I drove an E320 and was very, very impressed. I wouldn't like to drive one every day, but that was one hell of a car.

[SJ_GTI]

I know you keep saying only BMW offers manuals on higher end cars, but I would like to note that the A4 i offered with a manual on its I4, V6, and V8. Actually the highest "A4" model is only offered with a manual (RS4).

No more A6 manuals.  

Yeah i know. The A6 has become a luxury car, but the A4 is still a very credible sports sedan IMHO. I like to keep in mind an A4 2.0T quattro beat a bunch of cars (including a Mazdaspeed 6, G35, IS250, and 325i) around a track in the AWD comparison than R&T did. if you want RWD Audi isn't going to be a consideration, but personally I think if someone want an AWD sports sedan the A4 is the car to get (specifically the 2.0T).

[850CSi]

I know you keep saying only BMW offers manuals on higher end cars, but I would like to note that the A4 i offered with a manual on its I4, V6, and V8. Actually the highest "A4" model is only offered with a manual (RS4).

No more A6 manuals.  

Yeah i know. The A6 has become a luxury car, but the A4 is still a very credible sports sedan IMHO. I like to keep in mind an A4 2.0T quattro beat a bunch of cars (including a Mazdaspeed 6, G35, IS250, and 325i) around a track in the AWD comparison than R&T did. if you want RWD Audi isn't going to be a consideration, but personally I think if someone want an AWD sports sedan the A4 is the car to get (specifically the 2.0T).

Yeah, the A4 is a credible sport sedan. But you NEED Sport Package.

[cawimmer430]

Why should Lexus or MB offer a manual in some of their more powerful models when 99/100 buyers want the automatic?

Because, as that one person, I want one goddamit.    That should be enough for them. In fact, they should dedicate an entire production line's output to producing only manuals just for me. So there.

I don't know whether you're being sarcastic or serious, but if companies think like that, then they'll be squandering money big time.

Here's a genuine question:

WHY SHOULD LEXUS (or MB for that matter) OFFER A MANUAL IN THEIR LUXURY CARS WHEN MARKET RESEARCH INDICATES THAT 90/100 CUSTOMERS WANT AN AUTOMATIC?

These guys are out for profit. 90 guys paying for an A/T GS or E-Class give you more profit than 10 guys who'll pay for an M/T version of those vehicles. It's as simple as that. Bottom line, Lexus or MB (etc.) are willing to alienate those 10 customers because the profit lies with the other 90. Furthermore, Lexus is not trying to create a "sporty image" IMO. Their only remotely sporty car is the IS, and IMO, that car is more of a C-Class rival than a 3-Series.

If you want a manual E-Class, tough luck. You can other downsize to a C350 6-speed or move to Europe and drive a "completely underpowered" E280 6-speed. With Lexus, your only choice is the IS250 or IS220d.

[cawimmer430]

I know you keep saying only BMW offers manuals on higher end cars, but I would like to note that the A4 i offered with a manual on its I4, V6, and V8. Actually the highest "A4" model is only offered with a manual (RS4).

BMW offers manual on almost all their cars except for the 7-Series. That's their sporty image. BMW's are made for PURIST DRIVERS. Lexus is hardly a carmaker striving to attract enthusiasts IMO. The hype about the IS350 being a 3-Series killer is simply HYPE IMO. Being faster in a straight-line is one thing, but that doesn't make it the better car.

Lexus and Mercedes don't strive to attract purist drivers. And those who want a sporty Lexus simply have no choice but the IS250 or IS220d with a manual. At least Mercedes's offers manuals across the entire C-Class and SLK range bar the AMG models in the USA. The facelifted C-Class is sportier than the E-Class or CLS-Class, especially the Euro version (USA versions are softened up). I've driven them all and I can attest to this. Anyway, you want a manual with a Lexus or Benz, I just named your choices.

[cawimmer430]

A manual wouldn't be a problem here but we would be driving for 3-5 hours straight without a stop and it is simply far more enjoyable to have computer select the right gear for you in this type of situation.

3-5 hours with roads like that and a car with a good M/T sounds very close to heaven on earth to me. In fact, add in free gas and no cops and that is heaven on earth imho!

Not for me. The sun is shining and makes you tired, the A/C is on a high setting, the roads are curvy as hell, you have to concentrate (as well as sticking to the left side of the road)... basically, it all comes down to wanting to relax. The A/T makes you relax, especially the 5-speed A/T in our car.

If this was back in Germany, I wouldn't have a problem with an M/T. But long-distance driving in a foreign country coupled to a hectic schedule make an A/T my choice for the journey.

[cawimmer430]

I think people are totally missing the point about these cars. Most people here are driving enthusiasts, and hence think BMW is the second coming of Christ and every other carmaker has to be like them. They're not. BMW is "class leading" when it comes to driving dynamics and sport hands down, but comfort is not one of BMW's main strenghts (maybe in the 7-series, but not the 3 or 5), and it is probably not on their list of priorities since their cars are made for someone who likes a sporty and good-handling car. This usually comes at a compromise. Stiff suspension means good handling, but annoying comfort. In fact, a few days ago, my father and my mother both got a ride in their friends current 530i. Both commented that the suspension comfort was not up to the standard of our E320 for example. Get the picture? 

Hoooold on.  


You're making it seem like every BMW has an absurdly hard suspension and bone-jarring ride.

Uh-uh.


The reason people love BMWs isn't just because of the dynamics. It's because of the balance that they have between dynamics and ride (and this why I always feel that Mercedes is underappreciated by people who like to drive). I've never driven a car besides the M3 that handled as well as my car. But I can also safely say that the comfort level in my car is probably very close to that of a C-Class.

The reason car magazines marveled for so long at the E39 was because its suspension was an engineering marvel. They couldn't understand how it was so smooth but so capable.



I've driven an E320 and an S500 before. Even though both are dynamically excellent, the relatively soft suspension and lack of directness in the steering gave me an impulse that I personally don't like. Other people don't appreciate the directness of BMWs. It's all a matter of taste.


Now, I will probably never buy a Mercedes for myself because I simply can't stand A/Ts. Nor will I ever buy an Auto BMW. It's just the way I'm wired. And, personally, I can understand why people like the way MBs drive and ride. I drove an E320 and was very, very impressed. I wouldn't like to drive one every day, but that was one hell of a car.

It is not my intention to flame BMW's (I am not a troll), but the 5-series clearly has a sportier suspension setup than the pre-facelift W211 E-Class. Automatically, this should mean that the E-Class will be the more comfortable car. I am sure the 5-series is pretty comfortable, but it won't be up to the standards of the E-Class. Likewise, the E-Class won't have the handling qualities of the 5-series. That's basically what I am trying to say.

I have no doubts about the E39's superb suspension, and the car clearly had a mission in life. Other cars in this class don't really have that same mission. The revised C-Class might be more sportier and better handling, but it is still biased towards traditional Mercedes' values: which ain't a weekend day on the racetrack. Same deal with the Lexus IS, which to me is not a 3-series competitor in the sense that it's not as balanced as the current 3-series.

Yes, BMW and Lexus and MB are a matter of taste. It's sad that MB softens up the C-Class for the US market with vaguer steering and a softer suspension. The facelifted Euro C-Class took me by surprise with its precision like steering feel and harder suspension. Quite a change from the POS original W203 C-Class. Incidentally, the new facelifted E-Class has Mercedes' new "direct steering" which makes them more responsive to input and offer more feedback to the driver.

At any rate, I love manuals just like the next guy, but try to understand that the typical GS or E-Class customer will never consider one with an M/T. These people are looking for a nice family cruiser to drive around comfortably and relaxed. If they only want manuals in this class, then they have no choice but to go to BMW. Besides, I see it all the time here. Somene with an E350 in their garage has a manual transmissioned sports car next to it.  

If I recall correctly, you didn't drive an E320. You drove an E320 4Matic. That's even more underpowered...    

[850CSi]

^I agree with what you said there.

But it's debatable as to what exactly Lexus is targeting with the IS. They clearly targeted the 3-Series with the last-gen, and, in its time, it was nearly as balanced and fun as a 3-Series (although it had many shortcomings like its interior).


And, yes, it was a 4Matic. And I suspected at the time that it was a little too intrusive but I was impressed with the dynamics overall. It handled pretty well.


My new enemy is the stability control in my 3-Series. It annoys me sometimes. It won't even think about kicking in if I drop the clutch a bit or floor it too fast and squeal the tires on a straight-line launch (although sometimes if I redline a 1-2 shift and chirp the tires, it'll kick in). But if I hit even a slightly wet spot or try to get oversteer on a turn, it'll kick in a little too fast for my tastes.

Of course, it's only a dash button away from being crippled (which, ironically, is something I usually only do in the snow because the one situation in which I REALLY don't want computers involved is snow).  

[cawimmer430]

^I agree with what you said there.

But it's debatable as to what exactly Lexus is targeting with the IS. They clearly targeted the 3-Series with the last-gen, and, in its time, it was nearly as balanced and fun as a 3-Series (although it had many shortcomings like its interior).


And, yes, it was a 4Matic. And I suspected at the time that it was a little too intrusive but I was impressed with the dynamics overall. It handled pretty well.


My new enemy is the stability control in my 3-Series. It annoys me sometimes. It won't even think about kicking in if I drop the clutch a bit or floor it too fast and squeal the tires on a straight-line launch (although sometimes if I redline a 1-2 shift and chirp the tires, it'll kick in). But if I hit even a slightly wet spot or try to get oversteer on a turn, it'll kick in a little too fast for my tastes.

Of course, it's only a dash button away from being crippled (which, ironically, is something I usually only do in the snow because the one situation in which I REALLY don't want computers involved is snow).  

Wow, I thought the electronic nannies on the 3-series could be fully turned off! I guess it is that way because of passenger safety, they put that before fun.  

This week, I am hoping to sample a new facelifted E-Class to see how it drives. I have to find a space during the afternoon to drive on without missing a soccer game.  :P  

[850CSi]

Wow, I thought the electronic nannies on the 3-series could be fully turned off!

They can.


I guess 'killed' is a better term to use than 'crippled'    

[cawimmer430]

Wow, I thought the electronic nannies on the 3-series could be fully turned off!

They can.


I guess 'killed' is a better term to use than 'crippled'  

:P  

[Raza]

Who wants to deal with paddle shifters?

Does anyone know what percentage of M3s sell with SMG?

My guess is slightly less than the percentage that the exotics are sold, around 80-85%.

Every M3 I have parked has had MT, never parked one with a SMG.  Not numbers but something.  You would figure if the SMG is 80-85% I would have seen at least one.

I've seen at least ten times as many SMG M3s as opposed to proper manuals.  

[Raghavan]

I don't think i've seen an SMG M3 yet...

[Raza]

BMW has manuals?  

Thinking that any manufacturer other than Porsche or Lotus puts the enthusiast first is complete and utter rubbish.  BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, et al, only think about sales.

BMW sells manuals as a way of saying "Hey, we're the sportiest in the bunch!" even though the cars feel remarkably similar nowadays.  It doesn't matter whether a manual is offered--they know it won't sell, which is why you have to work your ass off to find something with a stick that isn't secondhand or a "performance" model.  Faris, as I recall, you had a bit of trouble finding that 325i you're "driving" around nowadays...

The truth is, there are only slightly more manuals running around on a BMW lot than there are anywhere else, and if you put it to a Volkswagen lot, I bet you'd find that there are less BMWs with three pedals than there are VWs.  BMW caters to fat, old, boring people, just like Mercedes, Lexus, and Audi do--never think differently.  Manuals, the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and other enthusiast gear are not pandering to the enthusiast, but merely placating them, and most likely made to sell more automatics (not to mention the fact that when you have a standard manual, you can show your list price 1000-1500 dollars cheaper than the automatic).  I've seen very few 3ers with manuals, and barring the M5 and BMW films, I've only seen one 5 series with a stick, never a 6.  On the other hand, I've never seen a GTI without a stickshift....

These are luxury companies first, don't let the rhetoric fool you.  If someone wants a Porsche, they're not going to buy a Lexus or a Mercedes or a BMW or an Audi--they're going to buy a Porsche.

[Raza]

Wow, I thought the electronic nannies on the 3-series could be fully turned off!

They can.


I guess 'killed' is a better term to use than 'crippled'  

Try driving with them off...

[omicron]

BMW caters to fat, old, boring people, just like Mercedes, Lexus, and Audi do--never think differently

I completely agree.  

[850CSi]

BMW has manuals?  

Thinking that any manufacturer other than Porsche or Lotus puts the enthusiast first is complete and utter rubbish.  BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, et al, only think about sales.

BMW sells manuals as a way of saying "Hey, we're the sportiest in the bunch!" even though the cars feel remarkably similar nowadays.  It doesn't matter whether a manual is offered--they know it won't sell, which is why you have to work your ass off to find something with a stick that isn't secondhand or a "performance" model.  Faris, as I recall, you had a bit of trouble finding that 325i you're "driving" around nowadays...

The truth is, there are only slightly more manuals running around on a BMW lot than there are anywhere else, and if you put it to a Volkswagen lot, I bet you'd find that there are less BMWs with three pedals than there are VWs.  BMW caters to fat, old, boring people, just like Mercedes, Lexus, and Audi do--never think differently.  Manuals, the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and other enthusiast gear are not pandering to the enthusiast, but merely placating them, and most likely made to sell more automatics (not to mention the fact that when you have a standard manual, you can show your list price 1000-1500 dollars cheaper than the automatic).  I've seen very few 3ers with manuals, and barring the M5 and BMW films, I've only seen one 5 series with a stick, never a 6.  On the other hand, I've never seen a GTI without a stickshift....

These are luxury companies first, don't let the rhetoric fool you.  If someone wants a Porsche, they're not going to buy a Lexus or a Mercedes or a BMW or an Audi--they're going to buy a Porsche.

I agree with all of that. Finding a manual wasn't that hard, but, then again, I live 15 minutes outside the 3rd biggest city in the country.

[850CSi]

Wow, I thought the electronic nannies on the 3-series could be fully turned off!

They can.


I guess 'killed' is a better term to use than 'crippled'  

Try driving with them off...

Did it today.

The only somewhat interesting thing that happened was that I floored it going around 5MPH in first gear and I got some wheelspin. I haven't been able to do anything involving turns yet and seeing how it responds with DSC off. I'm being cautious about it because I've never driven a RWD car without DSC and my driving habits often prompt DSC to intervene when I make a sharp turn.

[Raza]

I expected a shitstorm after what I said...it's still early I guess.

:)