New Mustangs?

[JYODER240]

The 300ZX is beautiful because it has such good porportions, the side profile is especialy good looking(the most important aspect of design IMO).

[Run Away]

Uhh, 300ZX isn't that great looking.

From the front it's really wierd, looks too smooth, same with the rear.

The side profile isn't as bad, but the curve for the rear quarter window doesn't look right.

[footoflead]

Its all a matter of opinion

[Lebowski]

Yes, the GTO is ugly (sorry Raza, but it's true), but it's flat out a better car than the Mustang.

Despite it's styling, the GTO is a pretty sweet car.  LS2, pretty decent Holden platform, and IMO the best interior of any American car in it's price range.

[Raza]

Its all a matter of opinion

That's not entirely true.  When speaking of the exterior of a car, there are two aesthetic elements, the design and the styling.  The design is the proportional component, which is not really a subjective matter--there are proportions that are pleasing to the eye, which is the single reason Da Vinci's Mona Lisa is such a highly regarded piece (if it weren't for the golden ratio, the Mona Lisa would just be another portrait), and then there is the styling of a car, which is subjective--this is the molded sheetmetal.  For instance, there are only a few cars with are fundamentally and universally ugly on the market today--such as the Nissan Maxima and the new Honda Civic, but there are many that are considered ugly because of the styling.

[Raza]

Yes, the GTO is ugly (sorry Raza, but it's true), but it's flat out a better car than the Mustang.

Despite it's styling, the GTO is a pretty sweet car.  LS2, pretty decent Holden platform, and IMO the best interior of any American car in it's price range.

What the bloody hell do you know?  In a car that has had six iterations, you chose the ugliest one as your daily driver!

   

[omicron]

Its all a matter of opinion

That's not entirely true.  When speaking of the exterior of a car, there are two aesthetic elements, the design and the styling.  The design is the proportional component, which is not really a subjective matter--there are proportions that are pleasing to the eye, which is the single reason Da Vinci's Mona Lisa is such a highly regarded piece (if it weren't for the golden ratio, the Mona Lisa would just be another portrait), and then there is the styling of a car, which is subjective--this is the molded sheetmetal.  For instance, there are only a few cars with are fundamentally and universally ugly on the market today--such as the Nissan Maxima and the new Honda Civic, but there are many that are considered ugly because of the styling.

The very first car I thought of having read that was the Fiat 130 V6 coupe. Not particularly revolutionary in a styling sense, but admired for its proportions.

I do, of course, assume that I properly understood what the hell you were on about.  Which I might not have  

[Raza]

Its all a matter of opinion

That's not entirely true.  When speaking of the exterior of a car, there are two aesthetic elements, the design and the styling.  The design is the proportional component, which is not really a subjective matter--there are proportions that are pleasing to the eye, which is the single reason Da Vinci's Mona Lisa is such a highly regarded piece (if it weren't for the golden ratio, the Mona Lisa would just be another portrait), and then there is the styling of a car, which is subjective--this is the molded sheetmetal.  For instance, there are only a few cars with are fundamentally and universally ugly on the market today--such as the Nissan Maxima and the new Honda Civic, but there are many that are considered ugly because of the styling.

The very first car I thought of having read that was the Fiat 130 V6 coupe. Not particularly revolutionary in a styling sense, but admired for its proportions.

I do, of course, assume that I properly understood what the hell you were on about.  Which I might not have

I think you may have.

[omicron]

It's certainly a lovely looking car.  

[Catman]

I'd be surprised if the Mustang design gets long in the tooth very fast.  The overall elements of the design have been around for a long time and they still look good.  The difference between the  GTO and the Mustang is that the Mustang is actually distinctive and stands out, the GTO does not.  No matter what you do to a GTO it still looks like a Cavalier.  I won't argue that the GTO is the better vehicle but the Mustang has it all over the GTO in styling.

[Raza]

I'd be surprised if the Mustang design gets long in the tooth very fast.  The overall elements of the design have been around for a long time and they still look good.  The difference between the  GTO and the Mustang is that the Mustang is actually distinctive and stands out, the GTO does not.  No matter what you do to a GTO it still looks like a Cavalier.  I won't argue that the GTO is the better vehicle but the Mustang has it all over the GTO in styling.

Well, your opinion is yours and yours alone.  But I still hold that the muscle car retro phase that everyone is going through right now will fade and eventually, as with Ferrari's and BMW's stages now, will be looked upon as a dark period in automotive history.

[omicron]

The original ('64 1/2 - '66) Mustang will always remain, to my eyes, the best proportioned and best looking Mustang of them all.  

[Catman]

I'd be surprised if the Mustang design gets long in the tooth very fast.? The overall elements of the design have been around for a long time and they still look good.? The difference between the? GTO and the Mustang is that the Mustang is actually distinctive and stands out, the GTO does not.? No matter what you do to a GTO it still looks like a Cavalier.? I won't argue that the GTO is the better vehicle but the Mustang has it all over the GTO in styling.

Well, your opinion is yours and yours alone.  But I still hold that the muscle car retro phase that everyone is going through right now will fade and eventually, as with Ferrari's and BMW's stages now, will be looked upon as a dark period in automotive history.

See, that's where I disagree. The premise that the Mustang is all retro is something I just don't agree with.  I think the car looks modern while at the same time calls on classic design elements.    The car is true to form for what it is.  The fact that the Mustang is such a huge seller is a testament to its design.  Obviously, very few people care about the live axle, etc.  So, it's just not my opinion Raza.  If the car looked like an abortion it wouldn't be selling like it is.  The GTO is a better car in most areas but it doesn't sell worth shit.  Why?  Because, aesthetically, it isn't happening for most people.  Yes, the GTO is more pricey but one can justify it if they have any sense of mechanical content and the interior quality, not to mention the engine.  But, it's bland and looks like it got shot out of worm hole originating in the 90's.  The average buyer cares more about styling than anything else.

If the car was 100% retro it would look like this:



Now it looks like this.  In my opinion, a very modern take on a classic design.  It's not going out of style very fast.

[omicron]

If the car looked like an abortion....

That conjures up all sorts of delightful mental pictures.  :ph34r:    

[Catman]

Raza, this is what I call a dark period.  

[MX793]

Raza, this is what I call a dark period.  

No question.  From the early 70s through to the mid to late 80s was the darkest period for automobiles.  With a few exceptions, the styling was bland and uninspired, particularly in the 80s when most cars looked like they were designed by 10 years old kids with straight edges.  Performance was pathetic too.

[Catman]

Raza, this is what I call a dark period. 

No question.  From the early 70s through to the mid to late 80s was the darkest period for automobiles.  With a few exceptions, the styling was bland and uninspired, particularly in the 80s when most cars looked like they were designed by 10 years old kids with straight edges.  Performance was pathetic too.

Performance, styling and quality was atrocious.  I was just a kid at the time the Mustang II came out but I remember thinking what a step back it was.  I didn't like it at the time and I still don't like it.  

[Raza]

Greg, I didn't mean that you are the only one that holds that opinion, but it's your own opinion.

And you should know by now, I care not about the average buyer.  The average buyer would buy anything if it's sold to them.

[Catman]

Greg, I didn't mean that you are the only one that holds that opinion, but it's your own opinion.

And you should know by now, I care not about the average buyer.  The average buyer would buy anything if it's sold to them.

Yes, you're speaking in personal terms and I'm being more general, I get it.  

[Raza]

The 80s may have been a terrible time for automobiles, yes, but it seems that we're moving back to that era in a different way.  See, now what we have is a wave of retro "inspired" cars (the Charger, Challenger, Mustang, the new Camaro, PT Cruiser, et al) that will not age well, but that's not the only problem.  Not too long ago, 300bhp was a lot of power--not anymore, it's barely pushing you out of family car territory.  The issue here is that the weight increases due to "safety" regulations, and the entire industry is relying even more on computers than ever have (they now sell a Lotus with traction control) which adds even more weight, and now the people are starving for performance, even if most of it goes unused most of the time, and the additional power means that fuel efficiency goes even further down, giving birth to spurious fads like hybrid technology--but the worst part of this whole horror story, is that the average buyer automakers like Ford and Honda and Toyota try so desperately try to placate are much like children with security blankets.  Lulled into security by machines that are made to keep them safe, the driving skills of the people in this country goes further and further down the drain.

The average buyer, as it were, is a terrible idiot.

This is perhaps the worst, darkest period in automotive history.

[Catman]

We're doomed! :ph34r:  

[Raghavan]

I agree with Catman. I don't think the style of the Mustang will go out anytime soon. I still didn't think they should've designed it retro though... How will the next one look like?

[Raghavan]

Yes, the GTO is ugly (sorry Raza, but it's true), but it's flat out a better car than the Mustang.

Despite it's styling, the GTO is a pretty sweet car.  LS2, pretty decent Holden platform, and IMO the best interior of any American car in it's price range.

What the bloody hell do you know?  In a car that has had six iterations, you chose the ugliest one as your daily driver!

 

AND it's plastic too! :angry:

     

[Raza]

In 10 years, the average buyer will be in a very good place.  The enthusiast, however, will be looking on past models for his automobiles.

[omicron]

In 10 years, the average buyer will be in a very good place.  The enthusiast, however, will be looking on past models for his automobiles.

At times like this one wishes for a quick trip back in time to 1971 - cheap petrol, access to soulful, character-filled cars, and a wonderful fixation on highways and freeways and driving. Or perhaps 1965.  

[MX793]

The Mustang won't age well?  The GTO looks kind of dated now.  It's not unattractive by any means, but its styling is very late-1990s.  I don't believe the current Mustang will be as timeless as its 1960s ancestors, but I don't believe it will age any worse than the GTO.  The Mustang also has more visual "kick" in its styling.  When you see a Mustang, you notice it and recognize it immediately even if you're not a car enthusiast.  A lot of times when I see a GTO, I don't necessarily notice it at first glance unless it's in a loud color, and I'm somebody who knows cars.  They just don't stand out.

[omicron]

Pontiac would have been better off taking the HSV version of the Monaro.

I'd be interested to know what Pontiac's market research told them about the looks of the car.  

[MX793]

Pontiac would have been better off taking the HSV version of the Monaro.

I'd be interested to know what Pontiac's market research told them about the looks of the car.

The Goat would have fit in perfectly with Pontiac's late 90s lineup, even into the early 2000s.  But starting in '03, Pontiac started to go to the more angular, sharper edged "new edge" styling.  Their cars started getting some more angular headlights and they started adding creases and other sharp edges to the cars.  The Bonneville was first in '03 and the Grand Prix followed in '04.  The GTO is a more rounded design, like the '97-'03 Grand Prix.

[giant_mtb]

The 80s may have been a terrible time for automobiles, yes, but it seems that we're moving back to that era in a different way.  See, now what we have is a wave of retro "inspired" cars (the Charger, Challenger, Mustang, the new Camaro, PT Cruiser, et al) that will not age well, but that's not the only problem.  Not too long ago, 300bhp was a lot of power--not anymore, it's barely pushing you out of family car territory.  The issue here is that the weight increases due to "safety" regulations, and the entire industry is relying even more on computers than ever have (they now sell a Lotus with traction control) which adds even more weight, and now the people are starving for performance, even if most of it goes unused most of the time, and the additional power means that fuel efficiency goes even further down, giving birth to spurious fads like hybrid technology--but the worst part of this whole horror story, is that the average buyer automakers like Ford and Honda and Toyota try so desperately try to placate are much like children with security blankets.  Lulled into security by machines that are made to keep them safe, the driving skills of the people in this country goes further and further down the drain.

The average buyer, as it were, is a terrible idiot.

This is perhaps the worst, darkest period in automotive history.

 :ph34r:  

[omicron]

Pontiac would have been better off taking the HSV version of the Monaro.

I'd be interested to know what Pontiac's market research told them about the looks of the car.

The Goat would have fit in perfectly with Pontiac's late 90s lineup, even into the early 2000s.  But starting in '03, Pontiac started to go to the more angular, sharper edged "new edge" styling.  Their cars started getting some more angular headlights and they started adding creases and other sharp edges to the cars.  The Bonneville was first in '03 and the Grand Prix followed in '04.  The GTO is a more rounded design, like the '97-'03 Grand Prix.

The Monaro/GTO is based on the 1997 Holden Commodore, after all.

I would hope that Pontiac doesn't think that the future lies with cars that look like the Grand Prix, though.