New R&T Comparo

[BMWDave]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

What do you think makes it drive like it drives?  Steering feel and ratio?  Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.

Of course they are. But if they represented every aspect of handling, then no one would have to conduct handling tests. Just the same as the way that engine power specs, even combined with vehicle weight, can't accurately measure acceleration.

But we agree that they are extemely important factors.  What do you think a person senses when he drives the car?  Its all these factors coming together in a cohesive package.

[TBR]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

What do you think makes it drive like it drives?  Steering feel and ratio?  Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.

Of course they are. But if they represented every aspect of handling, then no one would have to conduct handling tests. Just the same as the way that engine power specs, even combined with vehicle weight, can't accurately measure acceleration.

But we agree that they are extemely important factors.  What do you think a person senses when he drives the car?  Its all these factors coming together in a cohesive package.

Of course they are important factors, but they aren't the only factors. There are simply too many different variables that can effect the handling ability of a car for anyone to determine which one handles better by spec sheet only.  As heavy as these cars are, I really don't think 200 lbs probably makes that much of a difference.

[BMWDave]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

What do you think makes it drive like it drives?  Steering feel and ratio?  Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.

Of course they are. But if they represented every aspect of handling, then no one would have to conduct handling tests. Just the same as the way that engine power specs, even combined with vehicle weight, can't accurately measure acceleration.

But we agree that they are extemely important factors.  What do you think a person senses when he drives the car?  Its all these factors coming together in a cohesive package.

Of course they are important factors, but they aren't the only factors. There are simply too many different variables that can effect the handling ability of a car for anyone to determine which one handles better by spec sheet only.  As heavy as these cars are, I really don't think 200 lbs probably makes that much of a difference.

The less mass, the better the handling, usually.  200 pounds is a lot!

[Raghavan]

i don't think people will be nitpicking for 200lbs and steering feel in a sport luxury sedan...

[SJ_GTI]

i don't think people will be nitpicking for 200lbs and steering feel in a sport luxury sedan...

I wouldn't nitpick 200lbs, but steering feel I would definitely nitpick.

[Raghavan]

i don't think people will be nitpicking for 200lbs and steering feel in a sport luxury sedan...

I wouldn't nitpick 200lbs, but steering feel I would definitely nitpick.

that's because you are a car enthusiast. Most drivers aren't. And the kind of person who buys these cars are people looking for prestige, and luxury more than sport.

[850CSi]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.

My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.

[850CSi]

Some of you are saying that the 200lbs aren't a big deal. Trust me, you'd notice that an M35 would likely feel a lot lighter on its feet than an M45.

This is especially important because of the M45's weight distrubution when compared with the 5.

When you do the math, as far as weight goes, the M45 is basically a 5-Series with nearly 200lbs. put on the front axle.

Personally speaking, I don't like that fact, especially when I think that the 545 is already way too heavy.

[SJ_GTI]

Some of you are saying that the 200lbs aren't a big deal. Trust me, you'd notice that an M35 would likely feel a lot lighter on its feet than an M45.

This is especially important because of the M45's weight distrubution when compared with the 5.

When you do the math, as far as weight goes, the M45 is basically a 5-Series with nearly 200lbs. put on the front axle.

Personally speaking, I don't like that fact, especially when I think that the 545 is already way too heavy.

I totally agree with you, which is why if I was buying a car in this class (size) my first choice would be a 530i sport. Under 3500 lbs.

Heck, even the new 525i would be tempting. 3400 lbs and 215 HP is not a bad or slow combination.

[ifcar]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.

My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.

R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:

"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."

[Raghavan]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.

My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.

R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:

"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."

BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.

[Raza]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.

My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.

R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:

"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."

BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.

And BMW will sit idly by as its competitors close in...  

[TBR]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

What do you think makes it drive like it drives?  Steering feel and ratio?  Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.

Of course they are. But if they represented every aspect of handling, then no one would have to conduct handling tests. Just the same as the way that engine power specs, even combined with vehicle weight, can't accurately measure acceleration.

But we agree that they are extemely important factors.  What do you think a person senses when he drives the car?  Its all these factors coming together in a cohesive package.

Of course they are important factors, but they aren't the only factors. There are simply too many different variables that can effect the handling ability of a car for anyone to determine which one handles better by spec sheet only.  As heavy as these cars are, I really don't think 200 lbs probably makes that much of a difference.

The less mass, the better the handling, usually.  200 pounds is a lot!

Sorry, but I don't think 200 lbs is going to make that much of a difference when we are comparing a 3800 lb car to a 4000 lb one.  

[850CSi]

Some of you are saying that the 200lbs aren't a big deal. Trust me, you'd notice that an M35 would likely feel a lot lighter on its feet than an M45.

This is especially important because of the M45's weight distrubution when compared with the 5.

When you do the math, as far as weight goes, the M45 is basically a 5-Series with nearly 200lbs. put on the front axle.

Personally speaking, I don't like that fact, especially when I think that the 545 is already way too heavy.

I totally agree with you, which is why if I was buying a car in this class (size) my first choice would be a 530i sport. Under 3500 lbs.

Heck, even the new 525i would be tempting. 3400 lbs and 215 HP is not a bad or slow combination.

A 530i would be my choice. The 545 is way too heavy IMO.

[Raza]

Some of you are saying that the 200lbs aren't a big deal. Trust me, you'd notice that an M35 would likely feel a lot lighter on its feet than an M45.

This is especially important because of the M45's weight distrubution when compared with the 5.

When you do the math, as far as weight goes, the M45 is basically a 5-Series with nearly 200lbs. put on the front axle.

Personally speaking, I don't like that fact, especially when I think that the 545 is already way too heavy.

I totally agree with you, which is why if I was buying a car in this class (size) my first choice would be a 530i sport. Under 3500 lbs.

Heck, even the new 525i would be tempting. 3400 lbs and 215 HP is not a bad or slow combination.

A 530i would be my choice. The 545 is way too heavy IMO.

A 530i with an AA supercharger? Wot!

[Raghavan]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.

My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.

R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:

"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."

BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.

And BMW will sit idly by as its competitors close in...

they won't sit idly, but their rivals are coming faster and faster.

[Raza]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.

My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.

R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:

"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."

BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.

And BMW will sit idly by as its competitors close in...

they won't sit idly, but their rivals are coming faster and faster.

If Infiniti still wants to play the number game, I've seen the old 330Ci match the 280HP G35 coupe.  I can't even imagine how strongly the new 330i will decimate the G35.

[BMWDave]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.

My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.

R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:

"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."

BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.

And BMW will sit idly by as its competitors close in...

they won't sit idly, but their rivals are coming faster and faster.

If Infiniti still wants to play the number game, I've seen the old 330Ci match the 280HP G35 coupe.  I can't even imagine how strongly the new 330i will decimate the G35.

I guess Infiniti fails to realize that HP is not the factor that determines a sport car.

[Raghavan]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.

My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.

R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:

"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."

BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.

And BMW will sit idly by as its competitors close in...

they won't sit idly, but their rivals are coming faster and faster.

If Infiniti still wants to play the number game, I've seen the old 330Ci match the 280HP G35 coupe.  I can't even imagine how strongly the new 330i will decimate the G35.

i mean in handling. any company can bolt on more hp and make a car go faster.

[TBR]

Raza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.  

[850CSi]

Raza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.

The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.

And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?



I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.

[Raghavan]

Raza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.

The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.

And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?



I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.

because it's probably BIGGER than a 530i?

[850CSi]

A 530i with an AA supercharger? Wot!

What about a 325i... !!!???

That would be crazy...


Think, Raza... 3200 lbs... and 310HP...

It could all be done for under $40K...

[850CSi]

Raza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.

The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.

And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?



I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.

because it's probably BIGGER than a 530i?

Not Even close. The 5er is a good amount larger in every dimension.

[Raghavan]

A 530i with an AA supercharger? Wot!

What about a 325i... !!!???

That would be crazy...


Think, Raza... 3200 lbs... and 310HP...

It could all be done for under $40K...

its not all about hp.  

[Raghavan]

Raza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.

The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.

And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?



I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.

because it's probably BIGGER than a 530i?

Not Even close. The 5er is a good amount larger in every dimension.

:shrugs: it always seemed to me that BMW's were always one class higher than they should be size-wise.

[BMWDave]

Raza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.

The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.

And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?



I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.

because it's probably BIGGER than a 530i?

Not Even close. The 5er is a good amount larger in every dimension.

:shrugs: it always seemed to me that BMW's were always one class higher than they should be size-wise.

The 5er is bigger in every respect than the G35, but extensive use of lightweigh materials keep the weight down.  BMW now seems the most concerned about keeping weight down.  A lot of their cars are lighter than the previous version, or only have minor weight gains.  The 5, and Z4, to name a few, are lighter than their predecesors.

[TBR]

Raza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.

The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.

And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?



I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.

No, they will make it more refined with a higher quality interior and a better ride. Also, I think it is time you shut up about the G35's weight since it is only 100 lb heavier than the considerably smaller 330i.