New R&T Comparo

[BMWDave]

Link

I am very upset at this comparo.  R&T is supposed to be a enthusiast, sport oriented magazine.  The 545i won in every aspect of performance, brushing aside the other two cars.  And yet they lowered the score because of styling, ride, and interior functionality.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Road and Track was supposed to be the most sport oriented mag...it sounds like they are becoming a CR.

Thoughts?

[ifcar]

Reading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.  

[BMWDave]

Reading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related.  They did say its handling was ver good, and all that.  And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.  

[ifcar]

Reading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related.  They did say its handling was ver good, and all that.  And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.

Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.  

[SJ_GTI]

Meh, after reading the other reviews this is nothing new.

BMW is the most sporty, GS is the most luxurious, and the Infiniti is the best blend (and the cheapest).

Based on quotes like "...the BMW pulls ahead in the driving-related categories only to lose ground for its styling, comfort and ergonomics. That said, the 545i remains the enthusiast's choice for any kind of serious road work. Of our three, it's still the fastest, best-handling and most satisfying car to drive..." I have to imagine I would prefer the 545i since I like its style the best and comfort/ergonomics seem about the same for me between all these cars. That along with the fact that the 545i also gives me the right type of transmission (6MT).

Honestly though its hard for me to imagine spending the extra money over a 530i. I've never owned a V8 though so who knows, maybe I would be different if I was used to that big torque.

[TBR]

Reading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related.  They did say its handling was ver good, and all that.  And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.

Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.

Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?  

[850CSi]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

[ifcar]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.    

[ifcar]

Reading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related.  They did say its handling was ver good, and all that.  And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.

Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.

Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?

*whips out calculator*

I guess it does. The rest of the difference seems to have come from the interior and exterior styling ratings.

[BMWDave]

Reading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related.  They did say its handling was ver good, and all that.  And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.

Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.

Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?

*whips out calculator*

I guess it does. The rest of the difference seems to have come from the interior and exterior styling ratings.

Which was my point...you shouldnt take off points for interior functionality and exterior styling (both complete subjective), while the comparison is about sport, in which the 545i won a decisive victory.

[ifcar]

Reading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related.  They did say its handling was ver good, and all that.  And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.

Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.

Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?

*whips out calculator*

I guess it does. The rest of the difference seems to have come from the interior and exterior styling ratings.

Which was my point...you shouldnt take off points for interior functionality and exterior styling (both complete subjective), while the comparison is about sport, in which the 545i won a decisive victory.

I also disagree with the use of styling as a determining factor, (it was interior styling, not functionality, that the 545i lost a lot of points on) but sport obviously isn't and shouldn't be the only consideration in a $60K luxury sedan. Had they weighted price properly, the M45 would have won anyway.

I've always hated the chart-derived comparison orders, because it means that the editors don't get the same say in where the vehicles will place (though I assume the order would have been the same without the chart).

[BMWDave]

Reading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related.  They did say its handling was ver good, and all that.  And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.

Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.

Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?

*whips out calculator*

I guess it does. The rest of the difference seems to have come from the interior and exterior styling ratings.

Which was my point...you shouldnt take off points for interior functionality and exterior styling (both complete subjective), while the comparison is about sport, in which the 545i won a decisive victory.

I also disagree with the use of styling as a determining factor, (it was interior styling, not functionality, that the 545i lost a lot of points on) but sport obviously isn't and shouldn't be the only consideration in a $60K luxury sedan. Had they weighted price properly, the M45 would have won anyway.

I've always hated the chart-derived comparison orders, because it means that the editors don't get the same say in where the vehicles will place (though I assume the order would have been the same without the chart).

I don mind price as a determining factor...that isnt subjective at all, and is a very big consideration in buying a car....but ranking down a car because some tester at Road and Track doesnt like the exterior and interior styling annoys me a lot.

[ifcar]

Reading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related.  They did say its handling was ver good, and all that.  And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.

Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.

Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?

*whips out calculator*

I guess it does. The rest of the difference seems to have come from the interior and exterior styling ratings.

Which was my point...you shouldnt take off points for interior functionality and exterior styling (both complete subjective), while the comparison is about sport, in which the 545i won a decisive victory.

I also disagree with the use of styling as a determining factor, (it was interior styling, not functionality, that the 545i lost a lot of points on) but sport obviously isn't and shouldn't be the only consideration in a $60K luxury sedan. Had they weighted price properly, the M45 would have won anyway.

I've always hated the chart-derived comparison orders, because it means that the editors don't get the same say in where the vehicles will place (though I assume the order would have been the same without the chart).

I don mind price as a determining factor...that isnt subjective at all, and is a very big consideration in buying a car....but ranking down a car because some tester at Road and Track doesnt like the exterior and interior styling annoys me a lot.

Pretty stupid. But I suppose we could say that the ends justify the means; they came out with an order that I almost agree with by mistake, but they came out with an order that I almost agree with.  

[SJ_GTI]

Overall I think it was a good review even though I would personally rank them differently.

In all honesty style does seem like a silly category for giving points though. The only more rediculous point system I have seen is the one with "gotta have it" factor.    

[Raza]

Well, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.  But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.  The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.  I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.

[Raza]

Overall I think it was a good review even though I would personally rank them differently.

In all honesty style does seem like a silly category for giving points though. The only more rediculous point system I have seen is the one with "gotta have it" factor.  

Style is not completely subjective.

Well, technically it is, by design is not.  It's formulaic and mathematic.  So, style, a category that is comprised of both styling and design, is technically partially subjective.

[BMWDave]

Well, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.  But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.  The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.  I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.

The old M was a flop.  This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it.  I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.

[ifcar]

Well, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.  But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.  The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.  I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.

The old M was a flop.  This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it.  I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.

We've noticed.    

[BMWDave]

Well, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.? But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.? The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.? I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.

The old M was a flop.  This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it.  I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.

We've noticed.  

I know.  I was just replying to his comment that he didnt see much of the old and that he's already seen more new M's than old ones.  

[Raza]

Well, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.  But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.  The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.  I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.

The old M was a flop.  This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it.  I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.

Of course the old one was a flop--they sold maybe 4 of them.  But I found it to be a much better looking sedan.  At the time, the best Infiniti sold.  95% of the luxury of the Q45 with the same power, less weight, and a better suspension.

[Raghavan]

Well, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.  But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.  The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.  I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.

The old M was a flop.  This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it.  I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.

Of course the old one was a flop--they sold maybe 4 of them.  But I found it to be a much better looking sedan.  At the time, the best Infiniti sold.  95% of the luxury of the Q45 with the same power, less weight, and a better suspension.

I don't ever think i've seen an old M in person. Too blocky though.

[BMWDave]

Well, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.? But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.? The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.? I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.

The old M was a flop.  This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it.  I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.

Of course the old one was a flop--they sold maybe 4 of them.  But I found it to be a much better looking sedan.  At the time, the best Infiniti sold.  95% of the luxury of the Q45 with the same power, less weight, and a better suspension.

I don't ever think i've seen an old M in person. Too blocky though.

And way too skinny.  It was badged off a Nissan Cedric from Japan, and was not tailored for American Tastes.

[Raghavan]

Well, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.  But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.  The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.  I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.

The old M was a flop.  This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it.  I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.

Of course the old one was a flop--they sold maybe 4 of them.  But I found it to be a much better looking sedan.  At the time, the best Infiniti sold.  95% of the luxury of the Q45 with the same power, less weight, and a better suspension.

I don't ever think i've seen an old M in person. Too blocky though.

And way too skinny.  It was badged off a Nissan Cedric from Japan, and was not tailored for American Tastes.

It looked muscular, but the design didn't flow and it looked like a brick.

[BMWDave]

Well, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.? But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.? The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.? I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.

The old M was a flop.  This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it.  I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.

Of course the old one was a flop--they sold maybe 4 of them.  But I found it to be a much better looking sedan.  At the time, the best Infiniti sold.  95% of the luxury of the Q45 with the same power, less weight, and a better suspension.

I don't ever think i've seen an old M in person. Too blocky though.

And way too skinny.  It was badged off a Nissan Cedric from Japan, and was not tailored for American Tastes.

It looked muscular, but the design didn't flow and it looked like a brick.

It was still not tailored to American tastes...I dont think the fact that it looked like a brick specifically hampered sales.

[Raza]

It was as they tagged it...an intelligent muscle car.  That was the appeal.  I'm sorry it was lost on everyone else, but the 300C is such a huge success....

[Raghavan]

It was as they tagged it...an intelligent muscle car.  That was the appeal.  I'm sorry it was lost on everyone else, but the 300C is such a huge success....

it's as Dave said, it wasn't designed for the American market.

[850CSi]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

[ifcar]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.  

[BMWDave]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

What do you think makes it drive like it drives?  Steering feel and ratio?  Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.

[ifcar]

You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.

Uh, yeah there is...

The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.

If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars.  

200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.

Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.

What do you think makes it drive like it drives?  Steering feel and ratio?  Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.

Of course they are. But if they represented every aspect of handling, then no one would have to conduct handling tests. Just the same as the way that engine power specs, even combined with vehicle weight, can't accurately measure acceleration.