IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans

[BMWDave]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.? 750i
2.? XJ8
3.? S430
4.? Phaeton
5.? A8
6.? LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.

Snob  

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.

I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.

yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.

Not at all, IMO.  If you've seen one in person, it looks extremely classy and very well put together.  Solid car.

[ifcar]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.

Snob  

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.

I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.

yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.

Not at all, IMO.  If you've seen one in person, it looks extremely classy and very well put together.  Solid car.

I'm inclined to agree there. The interior and exterior are the car's strongest points IMO. It also has the exclusivity factor, it's the least common of these six.  

[BMWDave]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.? 750i
2.? XJ8
3.? S430
4.? Phaeton
5.? A8
6.? LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.

Snob  

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.

I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.

yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.

Not at all, IMO.  If you've seen one in person, it looks extremely classy and very well put together.  Solid car.

I'm inclined to agree there. The interior and exterior are the car's strongest points IMO. It also has the exclusivity factor, it's the least common of these six.

I'm sure thats not how it was intended , but VW sells very little of these.  The car looks brilliant in person, and almost has as much presence or more than an A8.

[Raghavan]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.

[ifcar]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.

And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?

[Raghavan]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.

And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?

my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.

[ifcar]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.

And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?

my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.

It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.  

[Raghavan]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.

And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?

my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.

It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.

:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?

[ifcar]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.

And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?

my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.

It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.

:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?

Nope. The BMW offers a better balance of sport and comfort/refinement even than the standard XJ8 L; the XJR would be worse off in that area.  

[Raghavan]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.

And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?

my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.

It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.

:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?

Nope. The BMW offers a better balance of sport and comfort/refinement even than the standard XJ8 L; the XJR would be worse off in that area.

so you're saying if you tested the XJR, it've scored less?

[ifcar]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.

And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?

my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.

It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.

:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?

Nope. The BMW offers a better balance of sport and comfort/refinement even than the standard XJ8 L; the XJR would be worse off in that area.

so you're saying if you tested the XJR, it've scored less?

Almost certainly. Refinement and comfort take top priority over sport IMO among ultra-luxury sedans, and coupling a loss in those areas with a greatly diminished price advantage, the XJR would have ended up behind the S430.

[Raghavan]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.

And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?

my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.

It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.

:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?

Nope. The BMW offers a better balance of sport and comfort/refinement even than the standard XJ8 L; the XJR would be worse off in that area.

so you're saying if you tested the XJR, it've scored less?

Almost certainly. Refinement and comfort take top priority over sport IMO among ultra-luxury sedans, and coupling a loss in those areas with a greatly diminished price advantage, the XJR would have ended up behind the S430.

nvm... makes sense. just asked that because i'm more oriented with sport.  

[SJ_GTI]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

[ifcar]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.

And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?

my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.

It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.

:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?

Nope. The BMW offers a better balance of sport and comfort/refinement even than the standard XJ8 L; the XJR would be worse off in that area.

so you're saying if you tested the XJR, it've scored less?

Almost certainly. Refinement and comfort take top priority over sport IMO among ultra-luxury sedans, and coupling a loss in those areas with a greatly diminished price advantage, the XJR would have ended up behind the S430.

nvm... makes sense. just asked that because i'm more oriented with sport.

Judging by the sales of the XJR vs. the others (notably the least-sporty Lexus) the average consumer looking for that type of vehicle favors comfort over sport, which is why the comparison test was weighted that way.  

[Raghavan]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

IFCAR likes quiet and numb.  

[ifcar]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.

[Raghavan]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.

i have. refined as in how smooth it is while turning and transitions, etc.

[SJ_GTI]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.

I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?

[Raghavan]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.

I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?

disconnection with the road, spongy handling, isolation, etc.

[SJ_GTI]

PS I don't disagree with using the standard XJ8(L), but I don't think it makes sense to call and XJR less refined than the standard XJ8. If anything I would expect it to be more refined.

[ifcar]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.

I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?

Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.  

[Raghavan]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.

I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?

Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.

well, you're just a wierd guy!  

[ifcar]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.

I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?

Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.

well, you're just a wierd guy!

 

[Raghavan]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.

I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?

Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.

well, you're just a wierd guy!

<_<  

[Raza]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.

I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?

Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.

well, you're just a wierd guy!

<_<

:ph34r:  

[Raghavan]

Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."

I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.

I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?

Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.

well, you're just a wierd guy!

<_<

:ph34r:

???

[BMWDave]

Dont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.

[Raghavan]

Dont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.

i WAS on topic.

[BMWDave]

Dont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.

i WAS on topic.

I wasnt specifically talking to you...  

[Raghavan]

Dont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.

i WAS on topic.

I wasnt specifically talking to you...

you could've added a smiley! :angry: