GT500 in the 11s with minor mods!!!!!!

[SVT666]

MM&FF got a GT500 into the 11.7 - 11.8 range with just tires, a programmer, and cat-back. Check it out.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0702_ford_shelby_gt500_track_test/

[GoCougs]

Interesting, though any car with sticker, bigger drag radials will see a good size increase at the sacrifice of handling and tire life.

Also, increasing redline from 6,000 to 6,500 RPM sound scary IMO. I would have like to have seen this independently tested as I would not be surprised if this is where most of the gain from the custom tune came from.

[SVT666]

Interesting, though any car with sticker, bigger drag radials will see a good size increase at the sacrifice of handling and tire life.

Also, increasing redline from 6,000 to 6,500 RPM sound scary IMO. I would have like to have seen this independently tested as I thiwould not be surprised if this is where most of the gain from the custom tune came from.

Why is that scary?  Ford Racing provides a custom tune that does the same thing.  I have seen the redline raised on several engines and they run problem free.  Besides the GT500 engine has forged internals, so raising the redline wouldn't bother me at all.

[GoCougs]

Why is that scary?? Ford Racing provides a custom tune that does the same thing.? I have seen the redline raised on several engines and they run problem free.? Besides the GT500 engine has forged internals, so raising the redline wouldn't bother me at all.

More RPM needs more than just a stronger reciprocating ass'y; stronger valve springs, stronger mains, better balancing, amongst other things.

If this add'l 500 RPM capacity is already built into the engine, why didn't Ford do this from the factory?

[SVT666]

More RPM needs more than just a stronger reciprocating ass'y; stronger valve springs, stronger mains, better balancing, amongst other things.

If this add'l 500 RPM capacity is already built into the engine, why didn't Ford do this from the factory?

So, according to you an engine should never be modified?  Ford's engines and transmissions in the Mustang and GT for that matter, are all overbuilt to a degree because of the popularity of the aftermarket.

[SVT666]

If it's such a bad thing then why does Ford offer all the same power improving products for their engines through Ford Racing that does NOT void the warranty?

[GoCougs]

So, according to you an engine should never be modified?? Ford's engines and transmissions in the Mustang and GT for that matter, are all overbuilt to a degree because of the popularity of the aftermarket.

No; but increasing redline by 500 RPM is not trivial. If the capacity is already there, why not do it from the factory?

[Raza]

I don't think this comes as a shock to anyone. 

[JYODER240]

I really wish I liked this car. I feel like I should.

[ro51092]

Awesome.

[sportyaccordy]

I really wish I liked this car. I feel like I should.

I don't on both counts.

[SVT666]

This car rocks, but it's just too heavy for my liking.  Give me a 3200 lbs SN95 like I used to have anyday....but with 500 hp instead of nearly 400.

[SVT666]

No; but increasing redline by 500 RPM is not trivial. If the capacity is already there, why not do it from the factory?

If the capacity isn't there, then why does Ford Racing offer a programmer that raises the redline and keeps the factory warranty in place?  Answer that question first.

[The Pirate]

Many cars do have the ability to have a redline raised fairly easily.  There was a chip for the 1.8T VW engine that increased boost and raised the redline among other things, without any work to the internals.  I can't remember the issue, but C/D chipped a long term B5 Passat, with no ill effects.  My car redlines at 6800 rpm.  I could get a chip or ecu reflash to raise the redline for a not a ton of money and I wouldn't have to do anything to the internals for a minor raise.

[Raghavan]

Way too heavy.
I'd much rather have a Z06.

[JYODER240]

Way too heavy.
I'd much rather have a Z06.

The Z06 is atleast 20K more expensive.

[GoCougs]

If the capacity isn't there, then why does Ford Racing offer a programmer that raises the redline and keeps the factory warranty in place?? Answer that question first.

It is unknown; but there is a specific reason, I just don't know what it is.

[Soup DeVille]

It is unknown; but there is a specific reason, I just don't know what it is.

They're probably trying to account for variability and long term fatigue in the valve springs.

For the record, most cars can raise their factory limit without problem.

On my Civic, the stock rev limit was 6800. I've been running a reflash that allows for 7500 RPM for three years now; no problems. Others have run as high as 8000 with the stock valvetrain.

[SVT666]

It is unknown; but there is a specific reason, I just don't know what it is.

Good point, I never thought of that.  Do you honestly think that Ford wouldn't overbuild the engines in the most modified cars on the planet?  Ford may be dumb, but they're not stupid.

[GoCougs]

Good point, I never thought of that.? Do you honestly think that Ford wouldn't overbuild the engines in the most modified cars on the planet?? Ford may be dumb, but they're not stupid.

They certainly won't do any more than they have to; "have to" being up to our nice little discussion here.

If Ford does indeed build in all this extra capacity, I think it is a questionable practice. How about a Focus redesign, or more than 300hp for the last-in-class F-150's 5.4L V8?

Having only experience in working in teams designing small consumer electronics and seeing the battles waged to eek out 1/20 of a cent for an LED or 1/10 of a cent from a battery, I can only imagine the cost-cutting battles in producing a car. I just don't see how they'd justify all this extra capacity. This is a relatively high volume, inexpensive 2+2.

[sportyaccordy]

This car rocks, but it's just too heavy for my liking.? Give me a 3200 lbs SN95 like I used to have anyday....but with 500 hp instead of nearly 400.

I don't get it either. Mustangs aren't about refinement or handling well. They've always been go-fast deathtraps with Crown Victoria motors. I say they go with an aluminum block and do away with all the fortifying of the chassis...bring it down to about 3400# and throw a 'drive at your own discretion' disclaimer sticker on it. As is it's just too much.

[SVT666]

The supercharger and intercooler added about 150 lbs or so.  The iron block and transmission weigh quite a bit more then the GT's aluminum block and 5 speed tranny.  The problem with trying to keep the price down on a car like this is that they can't use high tech materials to keep the weight down without making the car a weekend toy instead of a daily driver.  The Boss will fill that roll of being very light, very powerful, but very loud, and very minimalist...just what I would like.

[sportyaccordy]

The supercharger and intercooler added about 150 lbs or so.? The iron block and transmission weigh quite a bit more then the GT's aluminum block and 5 speed tranny.? The problem with trying to keep the price down on a car like this is that they can't use high tech materials to keep the weight down without making the car a weekend toy instead of a daily driver.? The Boss will fill that roll of being very light, very powerful, but very loud, and very minimalist...just what I would like.

Bleehhh...I'm not convinced. Japanese manufacturers boost aluminum blocks all the time, and transmissions are usually overbuilt anyway. If a Civic can get its tranny cryotreated and handle 3-4 times its rated torque, I don't see why the change to iron would be necessary, unless they built everything to handle like 3,000#. Hell, they could have had iron sleeves with an aluminum shell.

In any case, I guess the Cobra is analogous to the 911 Turbo, and the Boss is the GT3. I'm looking forward to the latter.

[SVT666]

Bleehhh...I'm not convinced. Japanese manufacturers boost aluminum blocks all the time, and transmissions are usually overbuilt anyway. If a Civic can get its tranny cryotreated and handle 3-4 times its rated torque, I don't see why the change to iron would be necessary, unless they built everything to handle like 3,000#. Hell, they could have had iron sleeves with an aluminum shell.

In any case, I guess the Cobra is analogous to the 911 Turbo, and the Boss is the GT3. I'm looking forward to the latter.

The iron block and forged internals are required when people go and boost the shit out of the engine.  I don't see too many Japanese cars pushing 800+ hp reliably on stock blocks....do you?  The transmission is heavier because it's a 6 speed unit as opposed to the 5 speed unit and it's beefed up.  The GT500 transmission has a torque rating that is nearly double that of the regular GT's 5 speed unit.

Like you, I too am eagerly awaiting the new Boss, although they won't be building many and they will be pretty pricey.

[Nethead]

HEMI666 & GoCougs:? Yeah, anytime you're under 12 seconds with street-legal hardware you are packin' some punch in the engine compartment!? And especially when you've left the suspension untouched!? After-cat exhausts, DOT-legal drag radials, and a chip re-flash are superminimal mods--I can't wait to see what they'll turn with suspension mods, tube headers, drag gearing, and some boost tweakin'!

"Also, increasing redline from 6,000 to 6,500 RPM sound scary IMO."
Gocougs: You may have read this from me before, and I'm sure HEMI has:? Sean Hyland Motorsports of Canada builds killer modular engines.? Two-three years ago, they were testing one of their modded modulars on a chassis dyno when the shaft connecting the engine to the transmission snapped.? Before they could shut the engine down the modular had soared to 11,000 RPM.? Tearing down the engine afterwards, they found no damage to the engine!? That's 5,000 RPM above the OEM redline, so 500 RPM above the OEM redline is a very small stretch indeed.? The engine in question had some mods (Hyland's book on modifying Ford modulars may have the particulars of the mods to that engine at the time the shaft snapped), and they must be good ones to survive a thrashing at 11,000 RPM!?

[MX793]

The iron block and forged internals are required when people go and boost the shit out of the engine.  I don't see too many Japanese cars pushing 800+ hp reliably on stock blocks....do you? 

There are Japanese motors that can handle that kind of power with the stock blocks.  But all of the ones I know of that can handle that kind of power use iron blocks (RB26DETT, 2JZ-GTE, VG30DETT...). 

[SVT666]

There are Japanese motors that can handle that kind of power with the stock blocks.? But all of the ones I know of that can handle that kind of power use iron blocks (RB26DETT, 2JZ-GTE, VG30DETT...).?

My point was they aren't using stock aluminum blocks with that kind of power.

[SVT666]

HEMI666 & GoCougs:? Yeah, anytime you're under 12 seconds with street-legal hardware you are packin' some punch in the engine compartment!? And especially when you've left the suspension untouched!? After-cat exhausts, DOT-legal drag radials, and a chip re-flash are superminimal mods--I can't wait to see what they'll turn with suspension mods, tube headers, drag gearing, and some boost tweakin'!?

To get a car that heavy down the track in that amount of time is truly impressive...especially with those minor mods.  4.10s or 4.30s, drag suspension, long tube headers, X-pipe, and larger MAF, throttle body and plenum, and CAI will put this car at the 11.0 mark or slightly below I'm sure.  I can't wait until mags start ripping shit out of this car to get the weight down to see if they can get it in the low 10s.

[sportyaccordy]

My point was they aren't using stock aluminum blocks with that kind of power.

All they need are iron sleeves, not the whole block...

[ChrisV]

They certainly won't do any more than they have to; "have to" being up to our nice little discussion here.

Remember, this engine is also used essentially in the Ford GT with considerably more output. The extra capacity is there, just detuned for Mustang work. The factories have been doing this for years.

The argument about "well, if it's so easy, why doesn't the factory do it" has been put to bed decades ago.