Silly brake pedal question

[AutobahnSHO]

Since I got the '99 (Spring '06, 120k miles,) the pedal has seemed very soft.  It never goes all the way to the floor but feels very very soft.

Makes for good modulation but the wife (and other family members who've driven it,) hate it.

I bled the brakes and I though it got a little better, but the wife disagrees.  I've checked pads, rotors, shoes, and drums, all seem in decent condition.  The ABS works (played in the snow a little over New Year's in NH.)

Anything else I should check??

[280Z Turbo]

I'm not really sure. My dad's '98 Dakota does it real bad too.

I wonder if it's something inherent in the system.

[Danish]

Maybe find another van and see if it has the same problem?

[turbolane]

Some things to check

1, contaminated break fluid. Break fluid absorbs water, water in the fluid will cause a soft petal. Bleeding wont help, needs to be flushed out if that?s the case.

2. Old rubber lines expand under pressure and can also give you that soft feeling. Check the soft lines to the front tires and rear if so equipped

3. parking break adjustment. Be sure its adjusted rite if you have rear drums.. Most cars are self adjusting every time you back up and hit the breaks. If that goes out of whack then the gap between the pads and drum grows and the slack must take up before contact also causing a long or soft petal.

Good Luck

[93JC]

Personally I think it's just inherent. I've driven an '02 Caravan, and while a little newer and not the same generation as yours, I'd wager the brakes are roughly speaking the same.

And that '02 had a nasty, soft, spongy brake pedal feel. Really shocking. I thought it would be noticeably stiffer. The other Chryslers I've driven had decent pedal feel (and steering feel, which I think really set them apart as much better than many Ford and GM products), but this Caravan was terrible.

[3.0L V6]

Yeah, I drive a 1998 Caravan and notice the same thing. I got used to it though. It's just the design.

However, I dislike the touchy throttle.

[ifcar]

That's just how that gen's Caravan brakes feel.

[S204STi]

You may be able to make improvements with new brake lines and fluid, also some more aggressive (also expensive) pads, like a Hawk or EBC pad.

[AutobahnSHO]

However, I dislike the touchy throttle.

No kidding.  It's like they did it to make it feel like it has a ton of torque off the line, but it's hard to not spin the tires in rain or snow. (Plus having un-grippy harder (longer lasting cheapo) tires doesn't help...  )

Thanks for the replies, guys- I wonder why they designed it like this??
(Yes I've already checked the parking brake after it didn't hold in our new (nov06) sloped driveway..)

[traumadog]

No kidding.? It's like they did it to make it feel like it has a ton of torque off the line, but it's hard to not spin the tires in rain or snow. (Plus having un-grippy harder (longer lasting cheapo) tires doesn't help...? )

Thanks for the replies, guys- I wonder why they designed it like this??
(Yes I've already checked the parking brake after it didn't hold in our new (nov06) sloped driveway..)

Lots of reasons.  All engineering comes at a price - if the master cylinder bracket has a little "slop" allowing movement - there'd be a cost of tightening it up, just for "feel".  And in some circumstances, it's more than just one thing.  The way the booster works, the master cylinder and its mounts, brake line compliance, pad material, etc...

[GoCougs]

I few days ago I got fed up with the sponginess of the Accord's brakes. It was bad. One had to make a concerted effort to stay on the brake to prevent the car creeping at idle in drive (resting one's foot on the brake just didn't cut it), and the brakes were simply hard to modulate.

Turns out the bump stop of the brake pedal (in its null or un-applied position) was way out of adjustment, giving me what seemed like two inches of free play before the brakes were applied. It's very easy to adjust on the Accord, simply a 1/4 turn, slide to new position and reverse turn (looks like a plastic bolt). Took a while to dial it in as there was a fine balance between getting rid of the free play and triggering a traction control system fault.

Made 100% the difference.

[southdiver1]

Replacing my rubber brake lines did the trick for me. The brakes were fine when cold but once things got heated up, they got pretty soft. Lots of fun in South Florida on I95.
Anyway, the fluid would heat up and cause the rubber brake hoses to get soft and expand. I replaced them with steel braded lines and the problem was solved.

[280Z Turbo]

Lots of reasons. All engineering comes at a price - if the master cylinder bracket has a little "slop" allowing movement - there'd be a cost of tightening it up, just for "feel". And in some circumstances, it's more than just one thing. The way the booster works, the master cylinder and its mounts, brake line compliance, pad material, etc...

Nah, it's not an issue with slop. It's a hydraulic issue. Spongier brakes means more pedal travel and less effort. Firm brakes means less pedal travel and more effort. It's all just mechanical advantage.

I believe a larger master cylinder will make the brakes firmer (can anyone back me up on this?).

[The Pirate]

I few days ago I got fed up with the sponginess of the Accord's brakes. It was bad. One had to make a concerted effort to stay on the brake to prevent the car creeping at idle in drive (resting one's foot on the brake just didn't cut it), and the brakes were simply hard to modulate.

Turns out the bump stop of the brake pedal (in its null or un-applied position) was way out of adjustment, giving me what seemed like two inches of free play before the brakes were applied. It's very easy to adjust on the Accord, simply a 1/4 turn, slide to new position and reverse turn (looks like a plastic bolt). Took a while to dial it in as there was a fine balance between getting rid of the free play and triggering a traction control system fault.

Made 100% the difference.

Where would this bump stop be in a Honda?  I'm assuming the Accord and Civic would have it in a similar location.


Edit: read your post a bit more closely, it seems that it is part of the pedal mechanism itself.

[AutobahnSHO]

and steering feel, which I think really set them apart as much better than many Ford and GM products

I have to say that if there was ever a minivan that handled like it was on rails, it would be the '99.  Of course, I'm comparing it to the '92 (which handles like a crappy truck) but it seemed almost good as the CRX..

[ifcar]

I have to say that if there was ever a minivan that handled like it was on rails, it would be the '99.  Of course, I'm comparing it to the '92 (which handles like a crappy truck) but it seemed almost good as the CRX..

There's a benefit to not test-driving the latest expensive cars, what you have seems much nicer.  :P

[Soup DeVille]

Nah, it's not an issue with slop. It's a hydraulic issue. Spongier brakes means more pedal travel and less effort. Firm brakes means less pedal travel and more effort. It's all just mechanical advantage.

I believe a larger master cylinder will make the brakes firmer (can anyone back me up on this?).

A larger diameter master cylinder will reduce stroke and increase effort, but will not necessarily improve brake feel.

[AutobahnSHO]

There's a benefit to not test-driving the latest expensive cars, what you have seems much nicer.? :P

Yuppers.
Unfortunately for a while I was in and out of old cars, rentals, old cars, rentals....

But a "new" used car still feels nice the first few times, without having a lot to compare it to..

[r0tor]

I'd try changing the brake fluid... the brake fluid sucks water in from the atmosphere and that water in the fluid boils before the fluid does - thus giving you a soft pedal


...worked for me in both cars i've owned now when i noticed my brakes getting soft

[AutobahnSHO]

I'd try changing the brake fluid... the brake fluid sucks water in from the atmosphere and that water in the fluid boils before the fluid does - thus giving you a soft pedal


...worked for me in both cars i've owned now when i noticed my brakes getting soft

I bled them and pumped quite a bit through.  Would I just do the same but longer??
I still need to look at the manual/ mechanism to see if the pedal has any adjustment..

[280Z Turbo]

Anyone ever try gravity bleeding?

It's supposed to work better than the 2 man bleeding.

Those one man self bleeders don't seem to work very well in my experience.

[S204STi]

Anyone ever try gravity bleeding?

It's supposed to work better than the 2 man bleeding.

Those one man self bleeders don't seem to work very well in my experience.

Gravity bleeding is good for getting the old fluid out or for filling up new lines, but you should always finish with a good two-man.

[r0tor]

I bled them and pumped quite a bit through.? Would I just do the same but longer??
I still need to look at the manual/ mechanism to see if the pedal has any adjustment..

if the fluid has absorbed a bunch of water, bleeding them isn't going to help as its the water and not the air in the system that is the culprit