The troubleshooting game.

[S204STi]

Yup, the circuit can seem sound but still not be able to carry the current necessary to operate the load.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Ok, so I'll try new battery cables, and if that's not it, then a new ignition switch, and if that's not it, check more grounds. Cool. 

[AutobahnSHO]

Ok, so I'll try new battery cables, and if that's not it, then a new ignition switch, and if that's not it, check more grounds. Cool.?

Or just get a $10 multimeter- check the resistance on the cables, then as you turn the switch check for 'continuity' (will tell you if current is going down the right wires when you turn the key).  And you'd use it to check grounds anyways...

[S204STi]

Or just get a $10 multimeter- check the resistance on the cables, then as you turn the switch check for 'continuity' (will tell you if current is going down the right wires when you turn the key).? And you'd use it to check grounds anyways...

Better yet check voltage at the starter with the key set to "start".  It should be the same as battery voltage.  If not, then you have a problem with either that cable or with the starter.

[Eye of the Tiger]

That's a good idea, sometimes I don't think of these things.
I almost bought a multimeter about a month ago, but instead I just got a simple circuit tester.
Me and electricity don't always get along... I've been electrocuted a couple of times. 

[93JC]

I've been electrocuted a couple of times.?

No, you were electrically shocked a couple times. Had you been electrocuted once, you'd never be electrocuted again, if you catch my drift.

[S204STi]

That's a good idea, sometimes I don't think of these things.
I almost bought a multimeter about a month ago, but instead I just got a simple circuit tester.
Me and electricity don't always get along... I've been electrocuted a couple of times.?

I'm a mechanic, I am payed to know these things.  Don't sweat not knowing about it yet, there are many things that I still don't know about or understand about cars.

[VTEC_Inside]

That's a good idea, sometimes I don't think of these things.
I almost bought a multimeter about a month ago, but instead I just got a simple circuit tester.
Me and electricity don't always get along... I've been electrocuted a couple of times.

Multimeters are your friends. I've got two. :)

[JWC]

I've got a potential entry....something we're working on in the dealership.  The fix that has been diagnosed....I don't believe is the problem, but I'm just a service advisor.  We'll see.

[S204STi]

I've got a potential entry....something we're working on in the dealership.? The fix that has been diagnosed....I don't believe is the problem, but I'm just a service advisor.? We'll see.

Always up for a challenge!

[JWC]

2000 Jaguar S
Clunking noise from front end over uneven roadway.  Sounds like "front end is coming apart".  Happens at any speed and is worse as road surface worsens.

Questions?

[Raza]

I think the front end is coming apart.

[JWC]

I think the front end is coming apart.

Brilliant deduction, Holmes.

We repaired it today. Customer got screwed.

Any guesses as to what the culprit was?

[S204STi]

2000 Jaguar S
Clunking noise from front end over uneven roadway.? Sounds like "front end is coming apart".? Happens at any speed and is worse as road surface worsens.

Questions?

Are the sway bar links and bushings good?

[JWC]

Are the sway bar links and bushings good?

You know Ringe, it took $500.00 dollars before anyone, save myself, asked that question.  You hit it.


Service manager takes the Jag for a road test.  Advises customer that the front struts are causing the noise.  Customer states he'll order the struts from Jag and have us install them.   Now, I was not there the day all this happened.

Customer gets his struts and we pick up the car.  I take one look at the RO and realize this isn't right.  This Jag only has 59,000 miles on it.  By the time I get a chance to check it out, it is too late, one side has already been installed.  I go over to the tech and ask...do you think this is going to fix the car?  No, he says, but I was told to put these on, so I'm putting them on.   I ask, what does it sound like to you, sway bar links?  Yep, tech says, but no one asked me.  After the struts are installed, the tech hands me the RO and the keys.  I asked if it fixed it. Answer:  Nope.

Service manager takes it for a drive.  Says its a lot better, which I knew he was going to say, because whenever someone misdiagnoses(sp?) a car, the parts installed that don't fix it, always make the problem better.

He pulls it onto the alignment rack. I give it about ten minutes and "happen" to pass by.  Sway bar end links are about to fall off.   I walk away. Whatever happens next, I don't want to be a part of it.  All I can say is, it left without the noise.

[S204STi]

You know Ringe, it took $500.00 dollars before anyone, save myself, asked that question.? You hit it.


Service manager takes the Jag for a road test.? Advises customer that the front struts are causing the noise.? Customer states he'll order the struts from Jag and have us install them.? ?Now, I was not there the day all this happened.

Customer gets his struts and we pick up the car.? I take one look at the RO and realize this isn't right.? This Jag only has 59,000 miles on it.? By the time I get a chance to check it out, it is too late, one side has already been installed.? I go over to the tech and ask...do you think this is going to fix the car?? No, he says, but I was told to put these on, so I'm putting them on.? ?I ask, what does it sound like to you, sway bar links?? Yep, tech says, but no one asked me.? After the struts are installed, the tech hands me the RO and the keys.? I asked if it fixed it. Answer:? Nope.

Service manager takes it for a drive.? Says its a lot better, which I knew he was going to say, because whenever someone misdiagnoses(sp?) a car, the parts installed that don't fix it, always make the problem better.

He pulls it onto the alignment rack. I give it about ten minutes and "happen" to pass by.? Sway bar end links are about to fall off.? ?I walk away. Whatever happens next, I don't want to be a part of it.? All I can say is, it left without the noise.

Wow.  I don't want to seem arrogant, but that is so elementary it isn't even funny.  It is always the first thing I check when diagnosing front end noise, particularly over uneven surfaces.

[JWC]

Wow.  I don't want to seem arrogant, but that is so elementary it isn't even funny.  It is always the first thing I check when diagnosing front end noise, particularly over uneven surfaces.

Elementary isn't even the word for it.  I was ashamed to be at the dealership today.  I just wanted to go home. 

Really, who the hell believes that any car needs struts at 59,000 miles? Especially a seasoned veteran of a service department.

Problem is, this is happening a lot lately.  A few months ago, a tech walked up to me with a 600.00 diag for a flashing airbag light.  Scan  tests indicated a module failure.   Pinpoint tests were inconclusive.  I told him to recheck it, because I drove the Windstar when it came it and the horn wouldn't blow...classic clockspring failure.  Scan test shows code for driver's airbag, circuit problem, no horn.  The tech reluctantly walked away to recheck it.  He came back, contact ring is ok, it is the module...and was I happy now for wasting his time.

Sold the repair to the customer, ordered part for next day.  Next day, part arrives, gets installed...and you guessed it...didn't fix it.  Hour later, tech comes back and says the clockspring is shorted out.  Must have been shorted out by the module going out.  Bull, f-ing, shit.  I've no rookie and I've seen this before and a clockspring fixes it every friggin' time.  I'm told to call and sell the clockspring, but we'll help with the labor.  You know how hard it is to call someone and AVOID the truth.  I looked at the manager and told him flat out, if this guy asks, I'm not lying.  He got pissed and made the call instead.

Same story with a F150 this week, same scenario,  same problem, same tech, same result.

[JWC]

And you can tell from my post yesterday, that I knew this wasn't going to fix it.  I'm still pissed.

The only good thing that happened today was a customer who came in and wanted plugs replaced in his 2003 F150 5.4L.  I was "selling" it, when he mentioned that it had the original plugs and over 130,000 miles on it.  I know from experience that the thread pull with the plugs on that engine (4.6 also) even at the recommended interval of 105,000.  My speech to him:

You need to be aware, that if the threads come out with the plug, the only option is to pull the head for repair, especially if it is on the right side.  So, before we do this, think about it first.  Instead of being a three hundred dollar tune-up, it can turn into a one thousand dollar repair. 

He thought about it and since the engine is running fine, hasn't lost power and hasn't dropped gas mileage he'll wait until it really needs plugs or he trades it.

I told him that may be a good idea, that I want his business, but I don't want to bring the truck in knowing that something like that is a potential problem.

He made my day when he said..."I can go anywhere and get lied to, but here, I know you always tell me the truth".

The service manager wasn't happy with me, but too bad.

[S204STi]

Kudos for being truthful with the customers.  I get so pissed when I overhear one of my advisors feeding a customer a load of bull when all they need to do is tell them my findings.  When I tell the advisor a car needs a water pump the guy goes into a long spiel about how the paper gasket sometimes fails due to blah blah blah etc. when he could just say, well sir we found your leak, it's the water pump.  That is a poor example, but basically I wish we had more straight talk in the industry, and I think you deserve a pat on the back rather than a scolding from your service manager.

Also, it sounds like that tech is a lazy diagnostic technician and should go back to brake jobs.

[JWC]

They are dispatching work to him that he can't do. In a way, I don't think it is his fault, but I've disagreed with him before about every Explorer and F150 that has over 60k miles and needs an alignment also needing upper and lower ball joints.  If he or the SM see any movement at all, no matter how slight, they recommend ball joints.  Even Ford specs show that some play is OK.  According to the SM and the tech, no play is allowed. 

Hopefully, by August, I'll be out of there.  I said that last year too and it didn't work out.

[S204STi]

They are dispatching work to him that he can't do. In a way, I don't think it is his fault, but I've disagreed with him before about every Explorer and F150 that has over 60k miles and needs an alignment also needing upper and lower ball joints.? If he or the SM see any movement at all, no matter how slight, they recommend ball joints.? Even Ford specs show that some play is OK.? According to the SM and the tech, no play is allowed.?

Hopefully, by August, I'll be out of there.? I said that last year too and it didn't work out.

Oh. My. God.

Did he go to Retard Tech?? I understand being dispatched work he can't perform, it happens to me frequently because I am in that stage with around 2yrs real world experience that I can handle some things, but others are over my head.? But stuff like that is either dishonest or completely retarded.

[JWC]

It's basically dishonest.

[VTEC_Inside]

Slightly off topic, but related in a way to that Jags front end noise.

Vehicle: My dads 2005 Toyota Highlander V6 Limited, etc...
Problem: Clunk from the right rear.

I'll just spill it, because its not that interesting. Keep in mind, everything under warranty, so..

Anyways, dealer of course instantly replaces the right rear strut. Of course the noise is still there.

Now I give it a listen. Sound is comming from under the rear seat, right about from where one of the trailing links attaches to the body. Service advisor doesn't appear to give it any thought, just orders another link. goes ahead and orders another link just based on what I said. You guessed it, problem still there.

This time I actually crawl underneath it in the parking lot and put my hand on the link while my dad rocks the thing. It was so obvious when I looked under it wasn't even funny. There was some very obvious play on the end where it attached to the knuckle. Keep in mind, this is a rigid link, the bushing is in the knuckle on that end.

Long story short, the bushing in the knuckle was shot. The best part? Its not independently replaceable, they had to replace the whole knuckle.

Not to toot my own horn, but had I not finally crawled underneath the damn thing, they probably would have eventually replaced the whole rear end.

[sparkplug]

We went to the ford place with our 1995 Ford Windstar. Actually my brother took it there because a part was making a noise. It was under warranty when they checked it. A part needed tightening so they charged for labor just because the part needing tightening. Dad no longer buy extended from anyone especially Ford. He only buys ford. But he thinks the service department is there to screw you. That was the one in Moncks Corner.

[AutobahnSHO]

But he thinks the service department is there to screw you.

They're either:
-trying to make money (at customer's expense)
-too lazy to actually use their brains and figure out what needs replaced (and trying to make money (at customer's expense))
-no brains so can't figure out what needs replaced (and trying to make money (at customer's expense))
-not experienced enough to figure out problem and more experienced techs won't help out (and trying to make money (at customer's expense)


Sense a pattern? See JWC's posts.  He's stuck at a dealership.

[The Pirate]

Okay, here's one.


2000 Honda Civic
1.6L non VTEC
116K miles


When I first start the car in the morning, there is this weird, quasi squealing noise.  It's not a belt, they have less than 10k miles on them.  It is only present between 1700 and 2100 or so rpms, and goes away totally when the car warms up.  It's temperature related as well, the car doesn't do this when the air tempereature is warm (above 40?F).  Drivability is unaffected, the car doesn't miss or stumble or anything like that.


Any thoughts?  I'm perplexed.

[JWC]

Don't know Honda's set up, but on a Ford, IAC valves will "moan" when not opening up completely, usually a prelude (Honda pun not intended) to eventual IAC problems. 


Cam synchro shafts will also. 

[AutobahnSHO]

Okay, here's one.


2000 Honda Civic
1.6L non VTEC
116K miles


When I first start the car in the morning, there is this weird, quasi squealing noise.? It's not a belt, they have less than 10k miles on them.? It is only present between 1700 and 2100 or so rpms, and goes away totally when the car warms up.? It's temperature related as well, the car doesn't do this when the air tempereature is warm (above 40?F).? Drivability is unaffected, the car doesn't miss or stumble or anything like that.


Any thoughts?? I'm perplexed.

could be way off but,
my 87 CRX had a sensor and valve that when the engine was cold pulled air from a separate hose (near the engine) than after the car had warmed up.  at least you know it's totally temperature related- check the auto-choke?

[S204STi]

For what it's worth I work for one of the top dealerships in the country, voted so by Time Magazine several years ago, and we have improved since then.  The company didn't get there by scamming customers and performing poor work or diagnostic practices.  There is a real sense of pride that we share in our company and our service, and it is because we strive to have the customer leave satisfied.  Do we have issues?  Sure, like I mentioned I still have a hard time with some service advisors because they go to far in dumbing down the explanations to the point of sometimes making stuff up to placate the customer, however we are not out to screw people, simply to make sure they want to bring their car to us to be fixed, and not the other guy down the road.  Ultimately it is a balancing act between the game of numbers and fair treatment of customers.

My point basically is please don't group all dealerships in the "Stealership" bracket like I myself used to do before I worked for two of them.

[S204STi]

Okay, here's one.


2000 Honda Civic
1.6L non VTEC
116K miles


When I first start the car in the morning, there is this weird, quasi squealing noise.? It's not a belt, they have less than 10k miles on them.? It is only present between 1700 and 2100 or so rpms, and goes away totally when the car warms up.? It's temperature related as well, the car doesn't do this when the air tempereature is warm (above 40?F).? Drivability is unaffected, the car doesn't miss or stumble or anything like that.


Any thoughts?? I'm perplexed.

Manual transmission or auto?