Whoops... :(

[rohan]

Okay, I'm not going to change your mind, and I'm not going to bother trying.? I've said my piece.? The vast majority of speed limits are hilariously low.

For instance- I have a car with about 450 after some things were switched by the previous owner.   Do you really believe I drive the speed limit or below every time I go out in it?  No- but I understand that if I get caught I might not only get a ticket but I will probably get 1-10 days depending on how bad it was- but I understnad that and am willing to accept the consequences of my actions- why?  Because it's what I've been taught to do by the only dad I've ever really known. 

[Champ]

I would like to add, that I generally don't have a problem with residential or city street speed limits.  It's typically highway limits that frustrate me, save some of the larger in town streets

[Raza]

I think highway speed limits are generally too low.

But keep in mind that most the people on this forum probably have higher than average driving skills, and interest in driving, and drive better than average cars.

The speed that is safe varies not only with road and weather conditions, but with the type of car and the skill of the driver.

There has been a tendency to base the speed limits on the lowest common denominator, but that is a political decision, and I think it's overkill to call it 'injustice.'

Perhaps injustice is too harsh a word.

[dazzleman]

For instance- I have a car with about 450 after some things were switched by the previous owner.? ?Do you really believe I drive the speed limit or below every time I go out in it?? No- but I understand that if I get caught I might not only get a ticket but I will probably get 1-10 days depending on how bad it was- but I understnad that and am willing to accept the consequences of my actions- why?? Because it's what I've been taught to do by the only dad I've ever really known.?

In all fairness though, as an LEO, you'll probably never get a ticket, and you know that.

[dazzleman]

Perhaps injustice is too harsh a word.

'Bad policy' is a better way to describe it.

I think any law that is violated by a large majority of people can't be a good law, because law enforcement depends ultimately on public support for the laws.

LEOs only operate on the margins; laws are never effective unless the vast majority voluntarily complies with them.  There can never be enough police to enforce laws that most people don't want.

The problem is that people are hypocritical.  They support laws that they don't abide by, because they want to restrain others.  Then they cry like little babies when enforcement lands in their lap.

Honestly, I don't see getting popped for speeding as being a big enough deal to get too upset about.  It's happened to me, and virtually all of my friends, multiple times, and never had any real long-term negative effect on our lives.  You have to keep these things in perspective.  Honestly, I'm a lot more worried about the misuse of our legal system by people with much more deleterious agendas than misguided speed enforcement.

[Raza]

No- I'm actually listening- I always listen to what you have to say-

Daz is probably right.  I think "unjust" might be a little harsh, but I still think speed limits are set too low.  Just by casual observation in my home town, I'd say that the average speed of traffic in a 35mph zone is 50mph, and that's about the average in a 45mph zone as well (although at times it can seem lower than that, which I find very strange).  Average in a neighborhood is around 40mph (which I personally find disgusting, since the 25mph residential zone is the only one I think is appropriate).  And on motorways, I've noticed that people tend to go faster (not just as a percentage above the speed limit) in 55 zones than 65 zones.  Of course, this is all just observation, but I do tend to drive a lot, and many times, over long distances on motorways that fluctuate between 65 and 55mph zones.  I think if we move 35s to 45mph, and 45s to 55, the speed limits would be much more reasonable.  I also don't see traffic accidents increasing, since people are already driving at that speed anyway.  Of course, since my observations are limited geographically, it may be different in other parts of the country.

[rohan]

I think highway speed limits are generally too low.

But keep in mind that most the people on this forum probably have higher than average driving skills, and interest in driving, and drive better than average cars.

The speed that is safe varies not only with road and weather conditions, but with the type of car and the skill of the driver.

There has been a tendency to base the speed limits on the lowest common denominator, but that is a political decision, and I think it's overkill to call it 'injustice.'

"Speed that is safe varies not only with road and weather....but with the type of car and the skill of the driver."
And the maintainance or condition of that car- if I take my car and let the tires down by just 10 pounds and let the brakes go to about 10% of pad that makes for a horrible unsafe car no matter how good I am behind the wheel.  At the MSP Advanced Precision Driving and Night Pursuit they wheel out an extra car and tell the guys just standing around to do something- like drive. (only on the precision course later in the week)  They let the guys try to make it through the course and usually at only 35 mph- speed of the course- it is almost impossible to keep the car from skidding out of control and hitting cones which represent kids.  Or as they say- the Governors kids because the state owns them.  The times Ive gone through I've never seen anyone make it with that car.   All they did was let just 10 pounds of air out of the tires- 10 pounds- that means that the tires were at 25 pounds.  Your tires cant' possibly be that low you say?  When did you check them last?  On average tires lose 1 pound of air per month- so if you don't check them for some reason in 10 months you might just have an unsafe vehicle.  My point- which I see took a long time to get to- is there's more to speed enforcement that just arbitrary tickets.  All most of us want is to not have to go to a fatal accident because somone was going too fast- and I'm sorry Jerry John June - whatever your name is- speed's results does kill in many cases.

[rohan]

Which is why I wish they would scientifically set speed limits, instead of a random number.? I think overall safety would go UP.

Here in Michigan - traffic surveys and civil engineers are supposed toset the original speed based on scientific information but of course that's limited to what's allowable for them to post by law.  Then if it's not a state road or highway the local government can do a survey and set them how they want them.

[dazzleman]

- and I'm sorry Jerry John June - whatever your name is-

You can call me Dave, or D-Man, as you see fit.  But my name's not Jerry, John or June.

[rohan]

Rohan --

On the speed issue, clearly the faster one is going, the worse the accident will be if there is one.

But I don't think that means that speed necessarily CAUSES the accident, though it may.

Right- but I don't think I ever said speed CAUSES accidents I've tried to stay with the results of the speed cause the injuries and deaths.  If I ever said speed causes I didn't mean to.

[Raza]

'Bad policy' is a better way to describe it.

I think any law that is violated by a large majority of people can't be a good law, because law enforcement depends ultimately on public support for the laws.

LEOs only operate on the margins; laws are never effective unless the vast majority voluntarily complies with them.  There can never be enough police to enforce laws that most people don't want.

The problem is that people are hypocritical.  They support laws that they don't abide by, because they want to restrain others.  Then they cry like little babies when enforcement lands in their lap.

Honestly, I don't see getting popped for speeding as being a big enough deal to get too upset about.  It's happened to me, and virtually all of my friends, multiple times, and never had any real long-term negative effect on our lives.  You have to keep these things in perspective.  Honestly, I'm a lot more worried about the misuse of our legal system by people with much more deleterious agendas than misguided speed enforcement.

That sounds pretty fair.  However, as of now, with one ticket 3 years ago, I'm paying 4 grand a year in insurance.  And I got popped on pretty much the biggest offender of low speed limits.  It's an unlimited access 4 lane highway with a maximum speed limit of 35mph, with some parts at only 30.  Granted, I still would have been nicked were it a 55 (I was going too fast, though I don't exactly fully believe that I was doing 70), but even if you roll around at 40mph, you'll get cut off and stared at by the majority of people.  And tailgated.  Tailgated galore.

[Champ]

Here in Michigan - traffic surveys and civil engineers are supposed toset the original speed based on scientific information but of course that's limited to what's allowable for them to post by law.  Then if it's not a state road or highway the local government can do a survey and set them how they want them.

Why even have them do a study if they are still bound by some other law?  A law to set a law seems redundant. 

[dazzleman]

That sounds pretty fair.? However, as of now, with one ticket 3 years ago, I'm paying 4 grand a year in insurance.? And I got popped on pretty much the biggest offender of low speed limits.? It's an unlimited access 4 lane highway with a maximum speed limit of 35mph, with some parts at only 30.? Granted, I still would have been nicked were it a 55 (I was going too fast, though I don't exactly fully believe that I was doing 70), but even if you roll around at 40mph, you'll get cut off and stared at by the majority of people.? And tailgated.? Tailgated galore.

Dude, I can't feel great sympathy for you on the insurance.  You caught a major break on a serious speeding offense, and I'm sure you've violated the speed limit countless times, and to a major degree, without getting popped.

[rohan]

In all fairness though, as an LEO, you'll probably never get a ticket, and you know that.

Not entirely unlikely- but I understand what your saying.  Even if I don't but I crash because I'm driving too fast to control my car there will be tickets and time off- and if I crash into someone I will get and extended unpaid vacation.

[Raza]

Dude, I can't feel great sympathy for you on the insurance.  You caught a major break on a serious speeding offense, and I'm sure you've violated the speed limit countless times, and to a major degree, without getting popped.

The ticket was recorded as a 41 in a 35, and still the insurance premiums.

[dazzleman]

Right- but I don't think I ever said speed CAUSES accidents I've tried to stay with the results of the speed cause the injuries and deaths.? If I ever said speed causes I didn't mean to.

I think certain accidents are caused by speed.  I won't deny that.

And I don't deny that higher speeds make crashes that are caused by other things more serious.

My only point is that there is no particular magic to the speed limit.  The risk increases incrementally as speed increases, so there's no magic point below which there is little to no risk.

You could of course enact a 20-mph speed limit on highways and if it could be enforced (it couldn't) that would lower fatalities.

It's human nature to push limits.  A certain percentage of people (myself included) simply don't like to follow rules, and driving fast is one of the few venues we have to indulge our rebel streaks.  Some people do it to different degrees than others, but most people do it to some degree.

I read an interesting study once that said that since the invention of the automobile, fatality rates per mile driven have remained roughly the same, through all the improvements in roads, auto technology, etc.  This suggests that no matter how safe you try to make roads and cars, a certain percentage of people will always push a certain amount beyond that safety zone.  It's human nature to test limits, and I think things would be a lot worse if we lost that tendency across the board.

Still, as I've said before, I favor strict enforcement for dangerous driving.  I'm not one of these 'there should be no speed limits' people.  And I'm perfectly willing to accept my penalties when I get popped.  It's necessary for the greater good of society.

[Raza]

I think that pretty much all accidents can be chalked up to inattentiveness. 

[rohan]

Why even have them do a study if they are still bound by some other law?? A law to set a law seems redundant.?

This thread is moving too fast for me!  I didn't say it was good system!- I was just saying how it works here and was hoping for a comparison elsewhere. 

[rohan]

Perhaps injustice is too harsh a word.

Not harsh in my eyes- just to large.

[Champ]

This thread is moving too fast for me!  I didn't say it was good system!- I was just saying how it works here and was hoping for a comparison elsewhere. 

Camp that shit!

[dazzleman]

Not entirely unlikely- but I understand what your saying.? Even if I don't but I crash because I'm driving too fast to control my car there will be tickets and time off- and if I crash into someone I will get and extended unpaid vacation.

I don't mean to be too cynical, but I've heard of many cases where LEOs were driving really drunk, and it was repeatedly covered up.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is corruption in the issuing of tickets and enforcement.  If you know the right people, it's fairly easy to get out of a ticket.

Last time I went to court for a speeding ticket, I was talking to the guy on line behind me.  He said he had a friend who worked security at the courthouse.  Once we got inside, he was talking to his buddy.  In a few minutes, he disappeared from the line, and I didn't see him again.  It was obvious what happened -- his buddy talked to the prosecutors, and the ticket got thrown out.  Had he known somebody with more clout, he wouldn't have had to show up at all -- the ticket would have been 'lost' and that would have been the end of it.

I don't use this to justify anything I've done wrong, and I don't mind taking my penalty when I get nailed, but it's nice to know that others are getting the same treatment.  Nobody likes to be a chump.

[dazzleman]

I think that pretty much all accidents can be chalked up to inattentiveness.?

Driving at an inappropriate speed can be a form of inattentiveness.

I've caught myself driving too fast sometimes and slowed down.

[Champ]

When will people bring cell phone usage into the equation?  They have little stuff here and there but it is still an issue that IMO needs to be addressed pretty badly.

[rohan]

I don't mean to be too cynical, but I've heard of many cases where LEOs were driving really drunk, and it was repeatedly covered up.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is corruption in the issuing of tickets and enforcement.? If you know the right people, it's fairly easy to get out of a ticket.

Last time I went to court for a speeding ticket, I was talking to the guy on line behind me.? He said he had a friend who worked security at the courthouse.? Once we got inside, he was talking to his buddy.? In a few minutes, he disappeared from the line, and I didn't see him again.? It was obvious what happened -- his buddy talked to the prosecutors, and the ticket got thrown out.? Had he known somebody with more clout, he wouldn't have had to show up at all -- the ticket would have been 'lost' and that would have been the end of it.

I don't use this to justify anything I've done wrong, and I don't mind taking my penalty when I get nailed, but it's nice to know that others are getting the same treatment.? Nobody likes to be a chump.

I've heard all those stories too- never let any cops drive away that I stopped drunk but I've called wives and girlfriends for them.  It's not so much about courtesy but more about if I ever need them when I'm working and I've arrested them when I could maybe have done something different- how much can I really count on them if my life is in danger?  I don't know - but I don't want to find out.  Its hypocritical I know but sometimes the figh has to swim with the school.  In Michigan prosecutors can't dismiss a ticket without cause.

[rohan]

Camp that shit!

LOL- I haven't got a clue what that means!

[dazzleman]

I've heard all those stories too- never let any cops drive away that I stopped drunk but I've called wives and girlfriends for them.? It's not so much about courtesy but more about if I ever need them when I'm working and I've arrested them when I could maybe have done something different- how much can I really count on them if my life is in danger?? I don't know - but I don't want to find out.? Its hypocritical I know but sometimes the figh has to swim with the school.? In Michigan prosecutors can't dismiss a ticket without cause.

I understand the reality.  As I said earlier, I don't expect perfection from any human system or group of people.  Still, what's right is right, and strictly speaking, your practice is not right.

Cause can always be found to dismiss a ticket.  If there's nothing, something can be made up.  Who's going to complain -- the person who received the ticket?

[Catman]

LOL- I haven't got a clue what that means!

F5 is "refresh". :P

[Champ]

The F5 key generally causes the webpage you are on to refresh, updating with any new posts since you last loaded it.

[rohan]

I understand the reality.? As I said earlier, I don't expect perfection from any human system or group of people.? Still, what's right is right, and strictly speaking, your practice is not right.

Cause can always be found to dismiss a ticket.? If there's nothing, something can be made up.? Who's going to complain -- the person who received the ticket?

I'll adress the first in a while- dinners ready- the officer is going to complain- we have a right to appeal any prosecutor/magistrate decisions in traffic cases.

[dazzleman]

I'll adress the first in a while- dinners ready- the officer is going to complain- we have a right to appeal any prosecutor/magistrate decisions in traffic cases.

Do officers really follow up on the disposition of individual traffic tickets?  And what happens if the officer does complain?  Do officers really have any power over how a court chooses to dispose of cases?  Under our justice system, the answer technically is 'no.'