Dodge Challenger, Chevrolet Camaro

[FIU Panther]

As we know both of these cars are coming out with a retro look and will be direct competition to the Mustang. Apparently another pony car war is about to start. What's everyone's thoughts on what's to come, favorites?

Right now just from the looks I prefer both the Challenger and Camaro much more over the mustang. These cars just looks badass.

[SVT666]

As we know both of these cars are coming out with a retro look and will be direct competition to the Mustang. Apparently another pony car war is about to start. What's everyone's thoughts on what's to come, favorites?

Right now just from the looks I prefer both the Challenger and Camaro much more over the mustang. These cars just looks badass.

I like the looks in this order:

1. Challenger
2. Mustang
3. Camaro

I believe that with the gas prices skyrocketing and the retro-styling fad starting to fade, the Camaro and Challenger will be cancelled within 4 or 5 years leaving the Mustang alone in the segment once again.

[Nethead]

HemiDude's being generous to give the Challenger and the Camaro 4-5 years--this ain't the market that existed in the 'Sixties. 

Dodge is wisely planning a two-year production and a play-it-by-ear attitude for any further Challenged production.  What effect the change of ownership will have is anybody's guess--but with gasoline above $3/gallon US the new owners may take a hard look at a smallish two-door that only offers V8s. 

GM will drop the Camaro as soon as their "planners" think they have found "the next big thing"--note that they didn't bother to develop a dedicated two-door chassis for the Camaro, but gave it a "one-size-fits-all" chassis also serviceable as a four-door sedan, a cross-over, a small SUV, a station wagon, and a xB-ish small van.  That'll surely work great...

But, hey, going extinct isn't the stigma it used to be--and you don't have to refrain from discussing it in front of the kids like woulda been done during The Golden Age of the musclecar.  One can't help but wonder how GM managed not to learn anything from the twice extinct GTO, which was also a 6-speed, big-engined pushrodder in a two-door coupe with RWD and IRS.  Oh well, stretching the bodywork of a '71 Toyota Celica ST a foot in length & width and removing the inner pair of headlights surely can't have cost GM very much, and the generic chassis will be a very modest investment...the marketing department will crank up the hype and suck in the gullible easily enough to sell well through the two halo years.  When sales tank, marketing will shift the emphasis to "the next big thing" and the Camaro will languish a coupla more years before quietly becoming extinct again.  Is it any wonder GM's market share is less than half of what it was when the original Camaro hit the dealerships?

[TheIntrepid]

Challenger
Mustang

To a lesser extent, Camaro

[SVT666]

One can't help but wonder how GM managed not to learn anything from the twice extinct GTO, which was also a 6-speed, big-engined pushrodder in a two-door coupe with RWD and IRS.?

Really Nethead, what does being a pushrodder have to do with anything?  That's right...nothing.  The Camaro and Challenger will die quick deaths because they are way too late to the party and the cost of fuel will keep people from buying them.

[93JC]

GM will drop the Camaro as soon as their "planners" think they have found "the next big thing"--note that they didn't bother to develop a dedicated two-door chassis for the Camaro, but gave it a "one-size-fits-all" chassis also serviceable as a four-door sedan, a cross-over, a small SUV, a station wagon, and a xB-ish small van.? That'll surely work great...

But, hey, going extinct isn't the stigma it used to be--and you don't have to refrain from discussing it in front of the kids like woulda been done during The Golden Age of the musclecar.? One can't help but wonder how GM managed not to learn anything from the twice extinct GTO, which was also a 6-speed, big-engined pushrodder in a two-door coupe with RWD and IRS.? Oh well, stretching the bodywork of a '71 Toyota Celica ST a foot in length & width and removing the inner pair of headlights surely can't have cost GM very much, and the generic chassis will be a very modest investment...the marketing department will crank up the hype and suck in the gullible easily enough to sell well through the two halo years.? When sales tank, marketing will shift the emphasis to "the next big thing" and the Camaro will languish a coupla more years before quietly becoming extinct again.? Is it any wonder GM's market share is less than half of what it was when the original Camaro hit the dealerships?

To develop a bespoke chassis for what is inarguably a niche product would be incredibly stupid. Granted, they did Kappa for the Solstice and Sky, but they're planning to adapt that for other products in the next few years.

[GoCougs]

1.) Camaro
2.) Mustang
3.) Challenger

Gas won't be a factor. The public has shown itself to be fairly insensitive.

I don't think there'll be much success with the Challenger, however. It's too big, and a shameless copy of the original.

[SVT666]

Gas won't be a factor. The public has shown itself to be fairly insensitive.

It already is a factor.  Sales of many cars with V8s and trucks/SUVs in general are sliding dramatically.  Gas prices are and will be a factor.

[GoCougs]

It already is a factor.? Sales of many cars with V8s and trucks/SUVs in general are sliding dramatically.? Gas prices are and will be a factor.

They are?

The Silverado, Sierra, Ram, Tundra, Escalade EXT, Escalade ESV, Avalanche, Suburban, Expedition, Yukon, Yukon XL, Armada, Navigator, Range Rover, FX45, LS460, Crown Vic, and others, are ahead of last year.

Those that aren't; F150, Tahoe, Durango, Mustang and others are down some (10% to maybe 20%), but it's not dramatic IMO.

That's still a lot of V8s being purchased. Throw in the new-for-'07 V8 models (Aspen, GL450, etc.) and I'd bet on balance there have been at least as many (if not more) V8s purchased YTD versus 2006. I'd also bet that it's a trend that holds throughout 2007.

[Champ]

To develop a bespoke chassis for what is inarguably a niche product would be incredibly stupid. Granted, they did Kappa for the Solstice and Sky, but they're planning to adapt that for other products in the next few years.

Crosses fingers for a new Saab Sonnett rebirth!

[Nethead]

To develop a bespoke chassis for what is inarguably a niche product would be incredibly stupid. Granted, they did Kappa for the Solstice and Sky, but they're planning to adapt that for other products in the next few years.

Ford cared enough to give Mustangs a "bespoke chassis" in 2005 and upgraded it significantly just one year later to incorporate all the frame/body knowledge learned from the twenty-eight GT500 test mules, which raised the torsional rigidity from 6000 lbs./inch to nearly 7500 lbs./inch in every Mustang you can buy. 

If Ford cares enough to do this, why doesn't Chevrolet?
10.  They figure a generic RWD econo-chassis that's suitable for a four-door sedan, a cross-over, a mini-SUV, a station wagon, or a quasi-minivan is plenty strong enough to handle the torque of big V8s, or
9.   They figure there's a huge untapped market out there for a six-speed, big-inch pushrodder dropped into a two-door coupe with RWD and IRS, or
8.   They figure they'll skim the two years of halo sales and then move on to other things, or
7.   They figure they can "steer" enough customers who can't afford Corvettes into sufficient numbers of Camaros to sustain the Camaro for as long as there are Corvettes, or
6.   They figure that there are thousands of disenchanted import owners just waiting for the chance to upgrade to a car that was legendary for its quality and utility, or...

David Letterman will have sixth-place American Idol Whatshisname Sangaya read the top five choices on the evening of the day the resurrected Camaros hit the dealerships.

   

[Nethead]

They are?

The Silverado, Sierra, Ram, Tundra, Escalade EXT, Escalade ESV, Avalanche, Suburban, Expedition, Yukon, Yukon XL, Armada, Navigator, Range Rover, FX45, LS460, Crown Vic, and others, are ahead of last year.

Those that aren't; F150, Tahoe, Durango, Mustang and others are down some (10% to maybe 20%), but it's not dramatic IMO.

That's still a lot of V8s being purchased. Throw in the new-for-'07 V8 models (Aspen, GL450, etc.) and I'd bet on balance there have been at least as many (if not more) V8s purchased YTD versus 2006. I'd also bet that it's a trend that holds throughout 2007.

GoCougs:  If "it's a trend that holds throughout 2007", how does that help cars that won't be for sale until after 2007? 

Already I can think of numerous V8-only vehicles that have recently entered the dusty annals of automotive history--the SSR, the Thunderbird, the GTO, the Monte Carlo SS, and there are probably a few others as well.  Those vehicles that offer sixes as well as V8s have probably seen a shift in the engines to sixes, too, but that's just a guess.  Lincoln has certainly been pushing sixes over V8s, and I think Chrysler is beginning to promote sixes in the 300s.  It'll be interesting to see the interest in the V8s now offered in the BMW M3...

[850CSi]

'Stang
Challenger...
...
...
...
Old Stang...
Old Firebird...
Old Camaro...
...
...
..
...
...
...
...
New Camaro.

[GoCougs]

GoCougs:? If "it's a trend that holds throughout 2007", how does that help cars that won't be for sale until after 2007??

I mentioned it in that insensitivity to gas prices today (2007) likely means insensitivity to gas prices tomorrow (2008).

[ChrisV]

I'm drooling over the Camaro concepts, and I don't see a hint of Celica in therm other than that bits of the original Celica copied the original Camaro, thus the new Camaro takes cues from the old Camaro like it SHOULD.

And I think that a modular approach to making a car like this is a smart move, as they can capitalize on a trend then move on without having to recoup a larger investment in a bespoke chassis that has to hang around long after it's sell by date. The GTO was SUPPOSED to be a niche player for a couple years. It did EXACTLY what they promised it would do and be and then it went away like they had said from the outset.  I don't see a problem with that. Making successive niche models that do the same job as a long production run of a single model is a viable business plan. GM's problem is not in those niche models but in their bread and butter cars.

I want this one real bad...



Give it some classic polished 18" Torq-Thrust wheels and a billet grille, and I'm set.

[93JC]

Ford cared enough to give Mustangs a "bespoke chassis" in 2005 and upgraded it significantly just one year later to incorporate all the frame/body knowledge learned from the twenty-eight GT500 test mules, which raised the torsional rigidity from 6000 lbs./inch to nearly 7500 lbs./inch in every Mustang you can buy.?

Many people think Ford management is inept, but they're not THAT stupid: the Mustang chassis is cobbled together from bits and pieces of other Ford platforms, DEW98 notably.

(And I know we've been over your 'lbs/inch' figure, but I suggest you stop spouting them: they make you look woefully ignorant.)

If Ford cares enough to do this, why doesn't Chevrolet?

Ford didn't do what you suggested, as pointed out above, but let's play along assuming S197 is a ground-up design that doesn't share anything with any other Ford chassis.

10.? They figure a generic RWD econo-chassis that's suitable for a four-door sedan, a cross-over, a mini-SUV, a station wagon, or a quasi-minivan is plenty strong enough to handle the torque of big V8s,

Who cares? For all you know it's better than the Mustang's (in fact I'm willing to bet it will be stiffer and stronger). The fact that it's adaptable to other applications is an asset, not a hindrance.

9.? ?They figure there's a huge untapped market out there for a six-speed, big-inch pushrodder dropped into a two-door coupe with RWD and IRS,

Live axles, no matter the cost savings, no matter how small the difference in performance versus an IRS setup, are a thing of the past. Consumers will increasingly refuse to buy them, simply because IRS is considered superior. Holding on to live axles, like holding on to pushrod-actuated valves, has in part lead to GM's financial problems: people don't want pushrod engines, and they don't want live axles.

The first thing GM should do, more than anything, is stop making the 3.5 and 3.9 L pushrod V6s and replace them with the 2.8 and 3.6 L DOHC V6s. Instantly the applicable cars would garner more interest. Coinciding with that, they need to add more gears to their automatic transmissions: four, no matter what, is no longer acceptable to most consumers, because their competitors advertise five and six, and five and six looks better on paper than four.

Regarding the Camaro, ideally GM would also drop in their 300 hp direct-injected 3.6L DOHC V6 as a base engine.




In the end GM is playing out the Camaro's launch fairly wisely: not wasting money on car-specific parts to maximize amortisation across the range, setting sales expectations low.

Even if the Mustang sells more units, far more even, GM could still make a lot of profit, potentially more profit, off the Camaro if they play it right.

[chevyguy06]

1.) Camaro
2.) Mustang
3.) Challenger

Gas won't be a factor. The public has shown itself to be fairly insensitive.

I don't think there'll be much success with the Challenger, however. It's too big, and a shameless copy of the original.

Agreed 100%.

[SaltyDog]

I don't think most people understand how great these cars will be.  They're reintroducing a whole new segment and doing a hell of a job of it.   

[SaltyDog]

Ford cared enough to give Mustangs a "bespoke chassis" in 2005 and upgraded it significantly just one year later to incorporate all the frame/body knowledge learned from the twenty-eight GT500 test mules, which raised the torsional rigidity from 6000 lbs./inch to nearly 7500 lbs./inch in every Mustang you can buy. 

If Ford cares enough to do this, why doesn't Chevrolet?
10.  They figure a generic RWD econo-chassis that's suitable for a four-door sedan, a cross-over, a mini-SUV, a station wagon, or a quasi-minivan is plenty strong enough to handle the torque of big V8s, or
9.   They figure there's a huge untapped market out there for a six-speed, big-inch pushrodder dropped into a two-door coupe with RWD and IRS, or
8.   They figure they'll skim the two years of halo sales and then move on to other things, or
7.   They figure they can "steer" enough customers who can't afford Corvettes into sufficient numbers of Camaros to sustain the Camaro for as long as there are Corvettes, or
6.   They figure that there are thousands of disenchanted import owners just waiting for the chance to upgrade to a car that was legendary for its quality and utility, or...

David Letterman will have sixth-place American Idol Whatshisname Sangaya read the top five choices on the evening of the day the resurrected Camaros hit the dealerships.

   

Part-sharing is blown out of porportion and automatically assumed to be bad.  You can take a nice house and a shitty house, and both will be framed with the same 2x4s.  Besides, the Camaro was never big on handling.  People buy them to cruise, go fast, get laid, and show style.

[Nethead]

I don't think most people understand how great these cars will be.? They're reintroducing a whole new segment and doing a hell of a job of it.? ?

SaltyDog:  What?  SaltDude, no one's reintroducing a whole new anything here!!!  Ford introduced the Mustang on 4/17/64 and has offered it continuously for forty-three consecutive years.  A few have imitated it unsuccessfully, but all the Mustang imitations became extinct years ago.  Some never learn...

For some of us, only the genuine item is good enough. We'll take Mustangs.
For others, an imitation is good enough.  For them, Camaros and Challengers will be available in one to two years.

[Onslaught]

SaltyDog:? What?? SaltDude, no one's reintroducing a whole new anything here!!!? Ford introduced the Mustang on 4/17/64 and has offered it continuously for forty-three consecutive years.? A few have imitated it unsuccessfully, but all the Mustang imitations became extinct years ago.? Some never learn...

For some of us, only the genuine item is good enough. We'll take Mustangs.
For others, an imitation is good enough.? For them, Camaros and Challengers will be available in one to two years.

You can think that all you want but I would take just about any year Camaro over the same year Mustang.

[SVT666]

You can think that all you want but I would take just about any year Camaro over the same year Mustang.

That would prove you have brain damaged.

[FordSVT]

1.) Camaro
2.) Mustang
3.) Challenger

Gas won't be a factor. The public has shown itself to be fairly insensitive.

I don't think there'll be much success with the Challenger, however. It's too big, and a shameless copy of the original.

I think the Dodge might do ok for the first year or so because a lot of 50-something Mopar guys are going to be itching to run out and buy them. But, like the 300, after a couple of years it'll be reduced to $8000 rebates and 150 days lot turnarounds until it fades away. The Camaro can do better as long as they keep price under control and find a way to lure women into buying them. It's the only way they can hope to sell 100,00+ units a yar on a continual basis.
-FordSVT-

[SVT666]

I think Dodge won't be able to keep up with supply for the first two years.  After that sales will start tanking until they cancel it after a 5 year run.  I predict the same thing for Chevy with the Camaro.

[93JC]

I see the Challenger dying after a few (three-ish) years, and the Camaro being redesigned within five, to something not so outlandishly retro looking.

[SaltyDog]

SaltyDog:  What?  SaltDude, no one's reintroducing a whole new anything here!!!  Ford introduced the Mustang on 4/17/64 and has offered it continuously for forty-three consecutive years.  A few have imitated it unsuccessfully, but all the Mustang imitations became extinct years ago.  Some never learn...

For some of us, only the genuine item is good enough. We'll take Mustangs.
For others, an imitation is good enough.  For them, Camaros and Challengers will be available in one to two years.

But the Mustang has been the only player(though a good one). 

Honestly I'm more excited about large, non-luxury, RWD sedans.  Ford and Chevy each needs one, and they have to be available in manual and some kind of sport trim.

[565]

As we know both of these cars are coming out with a retro look and will be direct competition to the Mustang. Apparently another pony car war is about to start. What's everyone's thoughts on what's to come, favorites?

Right now just from the looks I prefer both the Challenger and Camaro much more over the mustang. These cars just looks badass.

My shopping list would be.

Other cars.



Camaro
Mustang





Challenger


Seriously though I hate all retro, which is why Challenger gets the most hatred from me.  I never understood pony cars in the first place.  If I wanted cheap speed for 26K I'd get a Solstice GXP, or a 350Z.  If I needed back seats, I'd get an RX8. 

[Catman]

It's a good time for Ford to do a facelift (mild) an interior redo and add IRS.

[Onslaught]

My shopping list would be.

Other cars.



Camaro
Mustang





Challenger


Seriously though I hate all retro, which is why Challenger gets the most hatred from me.? I never understood pony cars in the first place.? If I wanted cheap speed for 26K I'd get a Solstice GXP, or a 350Z.? If I needed back seats, I'd get an RX8.?

I get the old ones kind of but if I was looking for a new car I would do the same as you.

[S204STi]

Ford cared enough to give Mustangs a "bespoke chassis" in 2005 and upgraded it significantly just one year later to incorporate all the frame/body knowledge learned from the twenty-eight GT500 test mules, which raised the torsional rigidity from 6000 lbs./inch to nearly 7500 lbs./inch in every Mustang you can buy.? ? ?

Yeah except it wasn't an all-new chassis.? It was a derivative of the Lincoln LS, which was a four-door sedan, as 93JC noted.